Bugyotsuji Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Unable to find a dedicated thread to Horimono, the search machine coming up blank, I decided to start a new one. If this is a repost Mods, please move/delete as necessary. Horimono can have a multitude of functions. Ideally they should improve the value and look of the blade, though purists might object to any carving within the blade itself. Some people love them, others hate them. Horimono have been used to cover a multitude of sins, too, I understand. Horimono can be old or new, carving talent not being limited to any century. Would people be interested in posting shots of their Horimono? (They may be difficult to shoot.) It would be a learning experience for me, especially if you can accompany the photograph with comments/readings/thoughts as to why it might interest the hono(u)rable members here. Thank you. Quote
Mark Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 here is a picture. it looks much better in person but hard to photograph. The sword was written about in the NTHK journal # 625 the senior Mr Yoshikawa commented that "the traditional,minute and skillful carvings enhance the sword" Quote
drbvac Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Kanefusa 23 generation: Born 1900 taught by Kato Yoshinosuke Jumyi - resident of Seki-shi (city) Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Posted January 29, 2012 Thanks for that, Mark. A beautiful work. The Ken is stunning. Three words by the senior Mr Yoshikawa, traditional, minute and skillful. So guessing the original Japanese they are carved to a (伝統的な)traditional formula, they are carved in (細かい) minute detail, and they are (熟練した、上手に) skillfully done. And he reckons it has improved the blade. I have seen artisans working on genuine old blades and marvel at their confidence. I once saw an NHK documentary about a famous carver who was trying to teach his son to follow his footsteps. When the dragon was complete, it was time to do the eyes, the most important part. The son was baulking/balking and sulking, completely unable to do it. All he could do was smoke cigarettes, refusing to take the next step. His father finally invited him to take a walk in the park and stopped by some Sakura trees in full blossom. "Look at this", he said. "The secret to the eyes is hidden in this flower." His son stared at the flower and slowly recognition dawned. He felt able to go back to the workshop and start work on the dragons' eyes. His father was even pleased with the result. 2 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Posted January 29, 2012 Kanefusa 22/23? generation: Amazing! Those scales are something. Quote
cabowen Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Kanefusa 22 generation: [attachment=0]kanefusa 001.jpg[/attachment] By chance did you mean 23rd? Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Doesnt the Naotane Horimono destroy the practical strength of the sword utterly since it goes straight through the blade ? KM Quote
cabowen Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Who in their right mind would use it? Quote
drbvac Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 By chance did you mean 23rd? Yep - geeze - Am glad you can edit my posts - fixed the date and times Quote
takeda81 Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Who in their right mind would use it? Well, it is / was / a weapons , so , with or without horimono should be still able to perform its main purpose as a weapon. In my very limited experience in nihonto , I beleive old swords with original horimono were solid enough and horimono was just outside and deep enough to affect blade integrity. It is that horimono which fades away with the more polishing of that blade in time and cannot be restored.... The same old blades but more tired / polished/thinned, with a newer horimono may be a problem of ressistance , when used let's say in Edo , late Edo... I also read that this new horimono was supposed sometimes to cover blades defects.. Please correct me if I am wrong , I am always ready to learn more and deepen my knowledges... Thanks Stefan Cristian Quote
cabowen Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 While there is no doubt that sukashi horimono will lower the structural strength to some degree, it is doubtful that it would be a matter of concern in any of the blades I have seen. Again, most of these were not meant for daily use but were rather made to be appreciated as masterworks of craftsmanship. I am sure one with would cut you the same as one without... Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 That is of course a fact, but the open Horimono I commented on would highly likely shatter the blade when it would be parried with another blade when in use. Then again, most Horimono are works of art in itself and some indeed are used to cover flaws, but definetely not all. It has to do with the way you see the Japanese sword imho. I first and foremost see it for the weapon that it is, and I secondly I see the art. To me a painting or statue can be regarded art, but they are a little cumbersome to wield on the field of battle.... I do not think that Horimono detract from the beauty of the sword itself though, like is said by some collectors. KM Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Posted January 30, 2012 Acquired this Kaiken tanto recently. Struggled with the lighting a bit... "Kaen no naka no Fudo-Myo-o". Yanagimura Senju, on blade by Tosho Kanbayashi Tsunehira. Nakago signed Senju. http://www.nihonntou.net/newpage5.htm 1 1 Quote
cabowen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 That is of course a fact, but the open Horimono I commented on would highly likely shatter the blade when it would be parried with another blade when in use. KM Nah, it won't shatter. It is steel, not glass......and the horimono is not in the hardened part of the blade. It is soft in comparison to the edge.... Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Just for arguments sake, it should be tested. But lets not do that.... Bugyotsuji: Yanagimura san is a brilliant carver ! KM 1 Quote
Eric H Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 A skillfully excecuted horimono adds to the beauty of a blade, it is an integral part of the blade and should be appreciated as such...to say that it detracts from its beauty is complete nonsense. Some examples... but not my swords. Eric 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Posted January 30, 2012 Lovely. There must be something really satisfying about carving beautiful figures in steel, especially when you are confident. One of my friends has just become independent after training for several years. He has taken several top prizes. I believe he charges something like 1 million JPY for a comprehensive horimono into a long blade, but it might take him several months to do it. Even then it would hardly be enough to keep him alive. (Henk-Jan, your comment above suggests you knew about Yanagimura Sensei before.)(?) PS Surely a good sukashi horimono would lighten the blade, but also take into account the stresses incurred in actual use. That is, a hori that ignores inner directional forces could well be considered a bad carving. (Just throwing out ideas here.) Quote
Eric H Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 but it might take him several months to do it Hardly, that's going faster... :lol: Excellent Horimonos on Gendaito 2 - by Abe Akira 3 - by Jitohan Senshu 4 - by Tadamasa 5 - by Masahira 6 - by Shigemasa Eric 1 Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Bugyotsuji, I came across Yanagimura sensei's work about a year back when scouring the choyusha webmagazines like this one : http://www.choshuya.co.jp/1/0810/member_frame_sword.htm KM Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 http://www.sho-shin.com/ Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 Mark, Brian, Jacques, Eric, Ian, Henk-Jan, Franco, many thanks for the beautiful examples. The more you stare at them , the more they seem to be frozen in some ghostly ethereal three-dimensional world. If I miss a name or fail to comment on someone's offerings, please know that many people are looking at and enjoying this thread. (Well, looking anyway! :lol: ) Quote
runagmc Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Franco, I think the ones you posted are both by Yoshitane, who is the best ever in my opinion. Here's two more by him. The tiny details are amazing... 1 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 What do we know about Yoshitane? Quote
runagmc Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 see this, http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisp ... /index.htm "HONJO YOSHITANE" MASTER HORIMONO ENGRAVER! YOSHITANE WAS BORN IN "DEWA" PROVINCE. HE WAS GIVEN THE NAME "KAMI-NO-SUKE", AT BIRTH. HE FIRST APPROACHED THE MON (SCHOOL) OF "TAIKEI NAOTANE" TO STUDY THE ART OF KATANA KAJI (SWORD MAKING), AND RESIDED AT THE RESIDENCE OF NAOTANE, IN THE "TEN-PO" (1830 ~ 1843). ALTHOUGH HE BECAME AN ACCOMPLISHED SWORD MAKER (HIS EXISTING WORKS ARE FEW), HIS TRUE EXPERTISE WAS AS A HORIMONO ARTIST! HE SERVED AS HORIMONO SENSEI (INSTRUCTOR) TO "SUISHINSEI MASAHIDE I", "SECOND GENERATION MASAHIDE", "TAIKEI NAOTANE", "SUISHINSEI MASATSUGU", "NOBUHIDE", AND MANY MORE! HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE HORIMONO THAT IS SEEN ON THERE BLADES. ON OCCASION THE SIGNED HIS WORK ON THE NAKAGO'S OF THE BLADES. OUR BLADE IS ONE OF THESE SELDOM SEEN PIECES! "YOSHITANE" WAS ONE OF THE FOREMOST HORIMONO CARVERS THAT EVER LIVED. THERE IS ONE REFERENCE THAT LIST'S THE "TOP 12" ARTISTES, HE IS RATED SECOND ONLY TO "UMETADA MYOJU"! YOSHITANE ALSO ACHIEVED FAME AS A KODOGU (SWORD FURNITURE), AND "TSUBA" MAKER. I HAVE INCLUDED AN PHOTOGRAPHIC EXAMPLE OF A FINE TSUBA BY HIM, AND SOME OF HIS MOST POPULAR HORIMONO'S. THE DETAIL, AND COLOR OF THE TSUBAS PATINA ARE MARVELOUS. HE IS RATED "JO - JO" SAKU (UPPER - UPPER) CLASS FOR HIS TSUBA, AND KODUGU WORK. HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY HIS SON, WHO'S WORK IS ALSO SUPERB. IT SHOULD BE CONSIDER IT A GREAT PRIVILEGE TO OWN A BLADE WITH HIS HORIMONO. 1 Quote
Eric H Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 THERE IS ONE REFERENCE THAT LIST'S THE "TOP 12" ARTISTES, HE IS RATED SECOND ONLY TO "UMETADA MYOJU"! Horimono on a Tachi by Umetada Myoju, dated 1598...his carvings are highly praised of unrivaled quality. Eric Quote
dirk marshall Posted February 2, 2012 Report Posted February 2, 2012 Horimono on sword made by Mizuno Masanori in 1954 a Rikugun Jumei Tosho during WW2. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 3, 2012 Author Report Posted February 3, 2012 Dirk, wonderful. A lot of love and attention must have gone into that. Is Mizuno Masanori still well-known today? Quote
dirk marshall Posted February 3, 2012 Report Posted February 3, 2012 Mizuno Masanori WW2 star stamp blade, i know he made swords until 1977. He was born in Meiji 35. He was a student of Sakurai Masayuki and Morida Masamichi. His teacher, Masayuki, was also the teacher of Sumitane Sohei, the living national treasure who passed away recently. Quote
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