Help With Identy of Army Sword Tang Markings

[mnrivrat48]

I'm new to the board and hope the pictures come thru OK. I need whatever help I can get for translation of the tang characters on this sword. It is a WWII Army . The tang has enough pitting that I had some trouble getting clear photo's . Whatever can be identified I would appreciate input.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I was trying to translate this and had gotten Mu Shi/Shiro? Tarou Yasukuni, now my translation work is always slow and I tend to search references to see if I'm on the right track. Usually can't find them until I've gotten whole mei translated but this time I got an early hit.

 

I say gimei since I found the identical mei on Houei-period NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon. Musashi Tarou Yasukuni, haven't even started to translate the otherside but as you can see it's perfectly same as in this Tokubetsu Hozon.

 

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/T3 ... PUP_E.html

 

I was really puzzled with that Tarou but english translation of Tokugawa-art site gives Musashi Tarou out as a title that was achieved by this smith. As a beginner I get a huge feeling of success when I manage to nail the correct reading...

[Geraint]

Hi Jussi and (No name).

 

Pictures of the whole sword would help but just because it is in army koshirae it does not follow that the blade cannot be older. I am puzzled that finding an identical signature on an NBTHK origami would lead you to think the sword is gimei, for most of us that would lead to the opposite conclusion; a genuine signature on a blade which was later mounted for military wear. The condition of the nakago would support this though, as I say, more pictures would help.

 

Well done for the translation, it is a nice feeling when you get one right.

[Geraint]

Oh, and by the way the link you provide should help you with the translation of the other side.......

[Jean]

(No name)

 

The name is Keith

[Jussi Ekholm]

Yes it's of course impossible to say if it's gimei or real based on just the mei of the sword (at least at my level). The reason was I suspected gimei was my mistranslation of the other side (I firstly read it as a date, and thought they were made at the same time, therefore I thought the mei was just copied from an old(er) sword). Like I said on my another post this is why I have usually waited until someone else chimes in, so I know it will be gotten correctly.

 

It might have been a wrong call and I understand that, and I apologize for that misjudgement, I was little too hasty there (you know young & restless). That's why it's nice to have more knowledgeable people around who guide in the correct way. I do inteded to ask more photos of blade in my original post but I was a bit hyped when I got the partial translation correct, and of course forgot to type it in. Since this Yasukuni who has the title has made the blade, I believe it could be a great sword. Since he was in high position and highly appreciated swordsmith.

 

Now as my Japanese is very very limited and one of my great kanji resources Mr. Steins site is temporarily down, I can't seem to get rest of the translation correctly. I suppose the 2nd last kanji is aki (meaning autumn?) last kanji is tsukuru (combined made in autumn?), that's about what I got earlier. I read the beginning first Hoei Jyu Go (which combined with the end made me think of a date), while now I tend to think it starts with Nao.

 

I'll be waiting almost as excited as mnrivrat48 more information about the sword and translation.

[Veli]

The other side reads Shin Ju Go Mai Kobuse Saku, truly 15 times kobuse forged, I think. The translation is on the left side of the Sanmai picture of the blade, as Geraint already pointed out :D

 

The signature looks different from the Sanmai example. We must remember, however, that there were three different smiths signing "Musashi Taro Yasukuni", so gimei or not gimei, that is the question

 

Veli

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well guess I need to learn to use my eyes and wits more too I thought that the Geraint meant clearer image of mei...

 

I stand totally corrected, not gimei is my thought now that I know the correct translation. That Jyu Go that was correctly in the end just made me instantly count for a date.

I guess the next question will be which generation Musashi Taro Yasukuni made the sword?

 

Now I do believe that Musashi Taro means, Taro (honorary title) of Musashi province? And it seems that the title goes from one generation to another?

 

Reading from Sanmei about Munekuni and, He learned the true 15 fold technique with his younger brother Musashi Taro YASUKUNI from their master Omura Kaboku who had served exclusively for Echigo Matsudaira clan and then in his later period served for a Tokugawa Mitsukuni as a medical doctor

 

So there is only 1 Musashi Taro Yasukuni who studied under Omura Kaboku and uses the 15 fold technique, the 1st gen Yasukuni but he of course would have taught the skill to another generation, so therefore all three use the same signature and 15 fold technique?

 

Hawley's lists 4 Musashi Taro Yasukunis (so 3 generations excluding the one much later)

1st 1688-1730

2nd 1736

3rd 1736-81

4th 1848 (Musashi Taro Minamoto Yasukuni)

 

The Sanmai example was by 1st gen Musashi Taro Yasukuni.

There was one wakizashi by 1st gen Musashi Taro Yasukuni sold by Christies

By 1st gen Musashi Taro Yasukuni http://www.bonhams.com/eur/auction/20090/lot/8917/#

 

Here is one sword by 2nd Musashi Taro Yasukuni. http://www.kanetoyo.com/sell-wakizashi-7.html Couldn't see much difference in signature by my eye (maybe few letters look bit different) but year and the fact that it read in description gave it out.

 

Here is another Musashi Taro (Yasukuni), I trust NBTHK papers and Aoi-art, since I can't read the last one. He worked in Kyoho-period 1716-1736 but the signature is different from 1st and 2nd generations.

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/11121-2.jpg

 

And now one question, which may be stupid. Since every Musashi Taro Yasukuni belonged in Omura style (wouldn't they have followed in tradition?) would they have made blades with pretty similar characteristics?

 

This is the wonderful world of nihonto, I can spend countless hours searching for information and no matter how much I think, I can't get any further. On the contrary just feel more stupid than in the beginning, so much new information learned today. The good thing about forums is that there is always someone with more knowledge who comes to save the say.

[cabowen]

I see no mention on the Bonham site that that sword is papered so we can not use that mei for comparison...

 

The mei on your blade does not seem as natural and fluid as the nidai as shown in the links. What is the workmanship like?

[mnrivrat48]

Thanks for all the information so far. I will try to post some more photo's soon. I am not familiar enough with these swords to judge workmanship, although this blade looks very comparable to a couple other early Japanese swords I have looked at. (of very good quality)

It will take me a couple days to retrieve photo's for posting. (they are on my computer at a different location)

I realy appreciate the assistance !

[Jussi Ekholm]

Yep that Bonham site example does not somehow appeal to my eye. If you compare the Bonham vs. Sanmei example horimono-wise since they are supposedly made by the same smith, to my eye there seems to be a huge difference in quality. Almost everything on that Bonham site sword is less "crisp".

 

Tried to search some more examples of 2nd and 3rd generation but failed. That Christies auction piece was Hozon by 1st gen but I can't open the picture.

 

In Mr. Nagayamas book Musashi Taro Yasukuni was listed as one of the leading swordsmiths of mid-Edo.

Description from the same book: This smith is believed to have belonged the Shitahara school as a student of Omura Kaboku.

Shinto tokuden tradition and Mino tradition: Blades have shallow sori, thick kasane and slightly tapering mihaba. The jigane is hard and the jihada is a little coarse. The hamon is o-notare, notare midare, o-gunome midare with scarce nie. The hamon is wide in the kissaki, ichimai boshi are seen.

 

Now to my uneducated eye that Sanmei example has many of these features 8,8mm kasane, quite shallow sori and slight taper. Now for me details are the hard part but I believe that boshi is ichimai as it turns into ko-shinogi.

 

Sorry for derailing this a bit but I believe some of this information might come in handy.

[Jean]

Keith,

 

Please, According to the Forum rules, add your signature in your profile: First name + Family name initial as there are several Keith on the Forum:

 

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