What is it called - and why is it there ?

[John A Stuart]

I like the logic behind the theory that ategane are placed in the hitsuana for balance when there is/are no kozuka or kogai/ bashin in the particular koshirae that has that tsuba fitted. I agree with Guido that if a kozuka or kogai are aligned in the hitsu correctly they will not have much (ideally no) metal contact and if they did any contact with soft or harder metals would cause wear irregardless. Now I know, when drawing the kozuka with the left thumb prior to the right hand grasping it, improper pressure will cause it to drag along the tsuba or seppa. This is just incorrect technique, I think. In many cases we see the seppa being cut back to prevent this as well. As to the placement in other areas around the seppadai outside of any ana it must surely be for artistic balance and no other reason possible. John

[runagmc]

to re-fit tsuba to a larger saya so there was no gap

 

If you look closely, there appears to be evidence that this was the reason, at least in this case...

[docliss]

I personally like the suggestion that the function of atagane may have been to adapt the shape of the seppa-dai to a wider tsuka. But is there any evidence that the width of the tsuka increased at some stage during the developmewnt of the sword, in order to confirm this suggestion?

 

John L.

[Guido]

A wider Tsuka doesn't neccessarily mean a general development, just a remounting to the taste and preferences of the owner. Also, the same blade and Tsuka, remounted with a new Saya that doesn't - or now does - accomodate a Kozuka and/or Kôgai might be a reason to add Ategane.

[Guido]

Now it gets interesting. The Ategane of this Tsuba doesn't change the shape of the Seppadai or Hitsu-ana at all, it follows closely what I assume is the original shape: http://taiseido.shop-web.org/cn11/cn35/pg267.html

 

A repair, pimping up the Tsuba, or indeed meant to protect the Kozuka in some way?

[sanjuro]

Yes it does get interesting..... Because this particular Ategane is concave to the seppadai it suggests that it is there to act as a cushion of softer metal on an iron tsuba where it might encounter the kozuka as it was withdrawn or replaced in the saya. I guess this then indicates that Atagane could indeed serve this purpose if only confined to the kozuka ana. One wonders however, if this is indeed its purpose, why the entire kozuka ana was not lined with the softer metal instead of merely this small part of it at the seppa dai. As Guido has pointed out, the kozuka is as likely if not more likely to be damaged by any part of the ana if improperly withdrawn or replaced. I seem to recall seeing a few tsuba that do have complete linings as opposed to atagane, to both kogai and kozuka ana.

On the other hand, the pressure of the right thumb pushing the kozuka initially inward and upward would, if the ana were a close fit, be most likely to make the kozuka contact the tsuba at the seppadai. Perhaps this was the thinking behind this particular placement.

[Thierry BERNARD]

some interresting Ategane !

[Pete Klein]

Anyone ever think about the possibility that they were there to prevent damage to the kozuka/kogai when the sword was withdrawn or replaced, or perhaps to help prevent them from being pulled out along with the sword? Just a thought, but as there isn't that much of the kodogu past the tsuba, if at all, it probably isns't the issue. Anyway, as the backs of kozuka and kogai are somewhat convex I would suggest that when you see inserts which are concave to flat they were placed to compliment kodogu and when convex and following the arc of the seppadai they were placed to re-shape the tsuba either to a new saya or to correct where kodogu were no longer present. If you go back one page and look at the second picture I posted you will see that there is a circumferential addition to the tsuba, but that the inserts in the areas of the kozuka and kogai have been adapted to their presence. This shows that this was a functional adaptation, in this case not only re-sizing the tsuba to a re-mount of a larger saya but to compliment the kodogu placement also. IMHO.

 

Here is an example of a tsuba modified for a kozuka without an insert. (If you look at the top and bottom of the cut out the walls diverge therefore not allowing retention for an insert). This might be indicative of an original koshirae (?):

 

[cabowen]

Maybe they are called ategane (当金）for a reason?

 

当る [あたる: ATARU] (1) to be hit, to strike

[John A Stuart]

Maybe both uses, since, 当 can mean appropriate or proper also. Where they are added to reform a proper silhouette of the seppadai, maybe? John

[drbvac]

Great discussion folks and I shall apologize if any earlier comments offended or even disturbed anyone on the forum. Even amongst brothers the talk can get pretty heated from time to time.

 

The examples of tsuba where the hitsuana on either side are not of the same shape or pattern I am not convinced in these cases that they were added for balance although that could be the case and maybe more so where they are identical

 

As well those that have been presented where the ategane may not placed be placed to compliment or balance the tsuba as they are inset into the original oval made to fit to the saya. This example I showed earlier, the shakudo insert is only on the one side and inset into the original sized oval.

 

 

 

 

I like Chris' though that it was to prevent scratching on the inside of a kozuka when the sword was drawn as well as not to pull the kozuka out with the sword.

 

Would it be the case that the shakudo is not necessarily a lot softer than the tsuba but is easier to be polished to a very smooth surface?

 

Probably where the entire inside that contacts the Tsuka is recontoured as an "addition" there can be an arguement that it is to widen the contact point for a different saya.

[cabowen]

Maybe both uses, since, 当 can mean appropriate or proper also. Where they are added to reform a proper silhouette of the seppadai, maybe? John

 

I would be more inclined to go with the most common usage....

[Rog]

Perhaps I should state at this point that the current Saya with this particular Wakizashi / Tsuba has no Kozuka/Kogai - see photo's...

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[runagmc]

Rog... interesting, but doesn't necessarily mean anything since your tsuba was almost certainly made, originally, for a different koshirae, and may have been used in a number of different mounting arrangements.

[b.hennick]

Here is a tsuba where the seppa dai has been enlarged but the ana for the kozuka left alone.

[Rog]

Rog... interesting, but doesn't necessarily mean anything since your tsuba was almost certainly made, originally, for a different koshirae, and may have been used in a number of different mounting arrangements.

 

 

as I so far understand these matters you are correct, I just wanted to make that clear in case/before it became an issue...

[docliss]

While it is an instinctive reaction to label the ategane on Brian’s tsuba as being intended to protect the soft metal kogai from damage by the iron tsuba, an alternative explanation might be that the seppa-dai was originally indented for the accommodation of a kogai and that, when this was no longer required, this indentation was converted for ategane in order to repair the seppa-dai. A full umegane would have been both impractical and unnecessary in this instance.

 

John L.

[drbvac]

Never thought of that and as time travel is not yet available tough to ask Kinai what the hell he bothered to do it for !

 

As I dont do much reading on Tsuba one would think that we can't be the first people to ask this question, and it should be discussed elsewhere.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Sorry about coming back to this late. Had some technical problems on my side and I determined I can't upload photos with my iPhone. Here is a tsuba in my collection with a iron ategane (当金) for reference. The insert reshapes the kozuku hitsu-ana.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[MauroP]

Hi everybody,

I apologize in advance for reopening a long time closed thread, but since NMB is (or should be) an authoritative resource for western tsuba connoisseurs, I think it would be useful to fix definitely some old but still unresolved issues. So, back to basics:

A: sekigane (責金). The small bits of soft metal added to the nakago-ana to fit the tsuba to a sword are unanimously defined sekigane by all the books I have consulted (ref.s 1,2,3,4).

B: sekigane (責金). Soft metal inserts lining the medial side of kōgai-ana and/or kozuka-ana (whatever they were intended to serve for) are called sekigane in Sasano (ref. 2). The exact meaning of sekigane is unclear in Haynes (ref. 5, p. 256).

C: ategane (当金). I think that the plugs that obliterate an hitsu-ana can safely called this way, but I was unable to find any support from my very limited library.

D: kuchibeni (口紅). Haynes (ref. 5, p. 251) states that the so called "lipstick" are the copper plugs which may be seen at the top and bottom of the central opening of a tsuba. I suppose it would be safe to call this way the sort of sekigane which were build with the tsuba itself (like most tsuba from Tanaka school, for instance).

E: ??? no idea at all. Decorative plugs of ko-sukashi can as well be called ategane/umegane?

 

I have deliberately ignored on-line glossaries (which I suspect are all cross-referenced).

Thanks in advance to whom will help me to definitely understand that issues, but please referenced statements, not just personal opinions. Bye, Mauro

 

References:

1. Earle J., Lethal Elegance, MFA Publications, Boston, 2004, p. 36 & 235

2. Sasano M, Early Japanese Sword Guards. Sukashi Tsuba, Robert G. Sawers, London, 1972, p. 278

3. Shibata M., Tsuba Nyūmon, Kōgei Shuppan, Tōkyō, 1967, p. 19

4. Kashima S. et al., Tsuba-no-Bi, Ribun Shuppan, 1969, p. 237

5. Torigoye K. & Haynes R.E., Tsuba. An Aestetic Study, Northern California Japanese Sword Club, 1994

[Ford Hallam]

David Stiles

 

In my opinion what you've got there is not an example of iron ategane. Rather, this suggests to me the tsuba is a modern cast copy. We've seen these before, where any such inserts that would be expected to be copper or some other non-ferrous or soft metal are of the same material as the actual tsuba itself it points to a reproduction. There are other giveaway clues even in the image you posted that identify it as a casting.

 

Without even considering the reasons for such inserts simply thinking about how they're fitted would make me suspicious of iron ones.

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

I can't examine that lemon because it has long since left my collection. But I do remember that it had a separate interested piece of iron if I remember correctly. Here is another old photo I found of the tsuba on my computer which might be a little bit better.

 

 

If someone out there on NMB has it please post a better photo. To determine if it is cast or if it has such a insert.

[Barrie B]

Hi all,

 

After re-reading my copy of the KTK Catalogue (2011) Random thoughts regarding the Seppa-Dai of Tsuba which discussed both adding 'material' to the Kozuka (and Kogai) ana as well as occasionally to some of the sukashi parts of the Tsuba around the Seppa-Dai (to adjust for alignment), I have come to agree with the author, that the 'material' (usually Shakudo) fitted to any tsuba (no matter what part) was only added to ensure that all the Koshirae fittings aligned and became kampeki.

 

I do agree that some 'material' (done in gold for example) were purely cosmetic - or aesthetic, if you like; however, after having a look at a particular Akasaka Tsuba I own, I have to come to the conclusion that this sekigane in the Kozuka ana of my Tsuba (which is not parallel or symmetrical), was added to make the Tsuba (specifically the Kozuka ana) align nicely with the rest of the Koshirae. I have many iron Tsuba (even fitted on Koshirae) that do not have 'material' fitted, because as someone stated previously, a correctly crafted koshirae does not need them.

 

Barrie B.

[b.hennick]

Someone went to a lot of trouble to make additions to this tsuba. I believe the work was done so that the tsuba coincided with the newer wider saya.

[Barrie B]

Barry,

 

A great example of what we are talking about. Pete Klein also posted several good examples of the seppa-dai being adjusted to suit the dimensions/ alignment of the new Koshirae - as probably dictated by the (then) new owner at the time. In the KTK article discussed previously, there are only hand drawn examples, so thanks for posting actual Tsuba for all to see.

 

Barrie B.

[Dr Fox]

It appears to me as a tsuba novice, that the underlying theme to this discussion, is the protection of one item from another.

In my mind ‘were both these items so rare, or made of precious metals that they deserved this care?’

Would not another theory be worthy of consideration!

That the insert was placed as a guide, so that the kosuka would bear against it on drawing, and thus be presented away from the tsuka, allowing a more positive grip.

 

Today we care more for these items, than the men who regarded these as tools of necessity. Do we miss that point?.