First purchases, Good blades and Bad flaws.

[willy wonka]

G'day All

Firstly as a relative newbie to nihonto let me say that I am in total awe of the combined knowledge and expertise on display by members of this forum.

 

I would like to get some opinions from the members here regarding the idea of flawed swords as first nihonto purchases, Im talking about blades in very good polish with plenty to study but also with enough flaws to drastically reduce the investment required.

 

I contest that although the general and very wise consensus of the forum is books, study and more study the ability to also examine an actual blade or two is not only advantageous but also much more likely to instill a true appreciation of nihonto.

 

I look foward to hearing your thoughts.

 

Cheers

Louie

[Surfson]

I think that many of us probably started with a first sword that served as the motivation to buy the books and read. I knew nothing about nihonto when I bought my first. If you find something that is very appealing and you think that it is priced such that you can resell it without a loss, I would say why not. Be sure that it doesn't have any "fatal" flaws however.

[bollefen]

All things being equal, which they aren't, I personally think that books are great, but come second to handling a blade. I'm sure my philosophy is not universally shared, but I think sound.

 

First off I think that holding a blade motivates us to learn.

 

I also collect 2 distinct types of swords. I'm old military and started studying martial arts in the 60s. I have "warrior's blades" with various flaws in battlefield buke zukuri mounts. Having studied Iajitsiu I appreciate a blade that a Samurai used. Not always showy etc, but a weapon his life depended on These are the blades I started with, i was also young and broke.

 

Over time I studied the books and learned a great deal, bought sold and studied many blades with all manner of flaws. Over time, as able I ended up with a handful of stunning blades but still have some battle blades.

 

So i suggest that a parallel have and study both blades and books is good.

 

Many, myself included, would caution you to watch your wallet as there is incredible crap out there. A number of reputable websites offer entry level blades, real, and affordable tha you can purchase and resell and move on as you are ready

 

Good luck in an interesting pursuit

 

kindly,

 

bill

[Jean]

I totally agree with you Bill, though I am not interested in mass produced swords, kazu uchimono or showa stamped blades.

 

I read John Yumoto's book more than forty years ago, this was the only one available in France, before the Robinson's. I bought then 2 wakizashi in auction for about 1200$ each. Should I have waited for the Nagayama Kokan book, I would not have bought any swords. The market is very narrow in France and antiques have a tendancy to sell rubish at jewel price.

 

To sum up, nothing will replace holding/having the stuff, books or no books. I have since bought a few thousand € worth books, I love reading them and fortunately I read English, otherwise I should I have to wait 2008 to read my first book In French on Koto (by Serge Degore/Kitsune) a splendid one.

 

It is frustrating to have to spend thousands on books without holding or buying the real stuff, too frustrating.

 

My advice for newbies: if you are fanatic of the stuff, buy the Nagayama Kokan's book. Read it and reread it for a year, meanwhile go with connoisseur friends to shows, then buy your first blade at a show from a reputable dealer, study it for a year with your book, then decide what you want to do: carry on or stop. To carry on you will have to buy more books then focus on your collection interest. Which school/smith, which period (koto, Shinto...) Then go back to shows and see as much blade as you can and have the dealer teaches all the features of the blades you are examining so you can have an understanding of the stuff and so on....

[runagmc]

My first blade was a mumei wakizashi that I paid almost nothing for. In my own assesment, I believe it was a Sue-seki kazuuchi mono. It was in a clear sashikomi polish which displayed proper shape and lines, lots of hataraki, and decent, but somewhat loose mokume/itame hada with masame shinogi. On the sashi ura there were two pretty bad kitae ware. None of the draw backs stopped me from learning alot about how to care for a sword, and what some of the characteristics of Nihonto look like in hand. I also believe that a person should try to step up in quality as they go.

[paulb]

I am with Jean on this. I have always recommended buying books, nearly 30 years after buying my first sword I still slavishly search for good reference material even though my actual collecting is now very limited.

While it is important to read as much on the subject as possilbe when starting I think you also need the stimulation of buying a sword just so you can hold it, learn how to look at it and start to recognise some features. You also quickly realise that many of the characteristics described in books as typical of a given school are not obvious and often very subtle. When buying early in a collecting career there should be some basic guidance. I have listed a few points below that I would think important I am sure others can add their own

1. Buy from a reputable dealer, it is in their interest to help and guide you.

2. Seek advice from someone who has been involved in the subject to help you.

3. Do not buy cheap blades in poor condition that are described as "study pieces". If you cant see the detail of hamon and hada what are you going to study and learn?

4. Buy the best you can afford. As I have said to the point of boredom for all, it is better to have one good piece than a dozen poor examples. You will learn, more, enjoy more and move on more easily when the time comes.

[bollefen]

Hi again,

 

I wanted to clarify something about study blades, I do not subscribe to buying junk. Here is an expample of a study piece for me

 

 

 

note the blade is actually nice, in excellent polish etc, but reasonably priced excellent fittings and furniture

 

 

 

Here is one of my better swords

 

 

 

 

 

and finally a blade in poor condition, but sentimental value but still has much to show

ah can't find a pic but will post one when i find it, net has pitting, hamon nearly runs off the blade (old,old koto repolished), hard to see any real details noie,nie etc.

 

Kindly,

 

bill

[paulb]

Hi Bill,

I understood what you meant and certainly would not include the blades you have illustrated in my comment about "study pieces".

This view has really come out of walking round various fairs over the years watching some dealers (generally not those who specialise in Nihonto) spinning a line to an inexperienced prospective buyer about a rusty slab of iron being a useful introduction to learn about Japanese swords. I maintain that if you cant see anything you cant learn anything. Those who buy these things with great expectation then become rapidly disillusioned with the subject and we lose potential future students.

If someone wants to collect weapons that in many cases are over 500 years old they have to accept either they are going to show some signs of age and ware or they are going to cost an arm and leg. The level of tiredness, or damage one accepts is a totally personal thing. I have known some collectors in the past who have walked away from beautiful swords because they have lost a couple of cm from the nakago while others claim they would be content with 25cm of perfectly forged steel. Most of us fall somewhere in between.

[willy wonka]

Bill

 

Your Koto blade pictured is a perfect example of what Im talking about, good polish, plenty to see and plenty to learn just enough little blemishes to bring the price down to somewhere near where you dont need to mortgage your house and sell your children to be able to afford it.

 

Louie.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I'm still wondering what could be a study sword.

[rkg]

Louie,

 

There are several problems with deliberately buying "klinkers" for study. First, its kind of hard to understand what a good sword is if you never study one. Second, once you've seen really good

pieces, all those "minor" flaws will probably drive you nuts in short order. And finally, pieces with big problems can be bought cheap, but will usually have to be sold even cheaper when you

inevitably get sick of the flaws and want to shift the piece.

 

I'd posit you're better off going and spending the money to look at good swords instead - a trip to a sword show will afford the opportunity to look at a lot of pieces, both good and not-so-good.

I personally think this is more important that getting a wall of books "first", though buying/reading Nagayama's and Nakahara's books first would probably be a good idea.

 

There are also other ways to not spend so much of "first" pieces - you can buy decent wakizashi for cheap these days - they're also hard to move along as well, but at least you can get something

to study that is in good condition for not a lot of money. You can also look at getting a gendaito of some kind -again, you can find decent in-polish pieces for not a lot of money (relatively speaking).

 

Good Luck with your search,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Jean]

I'd posiiut you're better off going and spending the money to look at good swords instead - a trip to a sword show will afford the opportunity to look at a lot of pieces, both good and not-so-good.

I personally think this is more important that getting a wall of books "first", though buying/reading Nagayama's and Nakahara's books first would probably be a good idea.

 

I fully agree with you George, buying/reading books cannot replace seeing and holding the stuff.

[Brian]

And I also agree with what Jacques is hintng at. There is no such thing as a study sword. How is that different from the main items in your collection?

We tend to call cheap swords with flaws "study swords" when actually these take you a step backwards. Maybe better to call them "stepping stone" swords, as these might be the ones you buy to see if you actually have a serious interest in Nihonto. These are then sold or traded up, to get you to the point you want to be at.

Don't buy these to study. You study the good stuff.

 

Brian

[b.hennick]

It was about 1978. Therewere not many books on Japanese swords. I had an opportunity to buy from a collection of swords that were brought into my city. The owner had a good eye and owned a militaria store. I decided to buy 7 swords all with something from which one could learn. A friend bought one. WE paid about the same for my group and his one. I studied and learned from the 7 and in the end sold all of them. I now own the one my friend bought. It was a better blade - a keeper. The others taught me a great deal. In the end I learned and it did not cost me much.

So yes there are study swords.

Here is another example, I am a member of the Rochester sword study group. I bought from one member a papered Yamato Tegai wakizashi. It was a typical Tegai and a good blade to learn from. I sold it to another member of the group. In the end each of us owned that blade and learned from it. All of us can recognize a Tegai blade when we see one. That was indeed a good sword to learn from.

[bollefen]

Interesting thread. I'm not generally a contributor, long time lurker.

 

Many have "described" study pieces, etc but I would like to see what we all mean, any pics?

 

Haven't gotten one of the rough wakazashi yet

 

bill

[runagmc]

If a person can learn something from a particular sword, then for them, it's a study sword. That being said, the higher the quality and level of importance, the more worthy a blade is of serious study by everyone, and therefore more worthy of the label 'study sword'.

[Brian]

Barry,

I would put it to you then, that all swords are study swords. If you can't find anything new to look at in it, or anything at all worthy of study in it, then why is it being purchased? Perhaps the only ones that aren't study swords are the cheap beater swords that are so out of polish that you can see nothing in them. Which is ironic since those are the ones usually called "study blades"

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

If kantei is the basis and foundation for sword appreciation, what is the point of studying a sword in which there is little or no likelyhood to determine the age, tradition, school of manufacture, and last but not least, the swordsmith who made it. Because, if those things cannot be judged properly, determined correctly, due to the lack of, or quality of, or condition of the "activity", then by what standard is the overall quality to be determined? And if the quality is at such a poor level to begin with, what in the heck are you studying the blade for, in hopes to learn what? Study blades, ha, just wait for the next NTHK shinsa, where if the past means anything statistically, on average some 60% of all blades submitted will get pinked. Study sword heaven!

[bollefen]

I think that Brian has captured the essence of what I was trying to say about study swords.

 

To me they are all study pieces, except the worthless ruined junk typically called a "study piece" who's only study value is to educate you on how you should not waste your money :lol:

 

bill

[b.hennick]

Hell Franco et al:

Kantei is great but one needs to learn to walk/crawl before running. One can use "study swords" to learn terms and activites in blades, shape as well.

At our next Toronto sword club meeting the topic will be kantei for quality of work in swords. Rather than who made it the question will be how well was it made?

We have run several traditional and Rochester study group style of kantei but this one will be for quality...

The Rochester study group developed a team kantei where the members were divided into two teams and the team discussed each blade and the reasoning for determination. The idea was that senior members could guide junior members with all learning. Making someone articulate reasoning is a good learning experience.

[John A Stuart]

I like that idea, Barry. The group method. John