Adrian S Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 G'day to all, Gentlemen, my article is an alternative theory on some aspects of the Origin's of Soshu-den and I present it as such. As no conclusive proof exists at this time then I would beg your indulgence to treat it as a theory, not a statement of fact on my part. I welcome any "new" research or information that can be forwarded to me privately to nihonto@bigpond.net.au thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John A Stuart Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Hi Adrian, You are treading the minefield ably and your article is an interesting one dealing with recondite subject matter. Whether there is consensus or not is unimportant, that you are providing alternate data and hypothesis is. keep on truckin'. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianmalterre Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Dear Adrian thank you for your´s answer here-in fact,this does clearify mine thoughts "why" you point this and what you do see/are especially looking on... You are right and not right of course. I do agree with this delicate example here from point of view of it´s metallurgical visible factor-Not,but in regard so to question it-as it does show everything an Yamashiro blade is looked and known for. Grounding on it´s hypothetical geographical origin is more than just courious-if you do take these (Ideas) as an base!(Me, i would be very very careful here) Regarding it´s metalurgic aspect-Please do not get confused by later Yamashiro blades-which nearly completely lost those(partial)visible appearence(s). I do see-it´s a very tricky Minefield you are running through-in fact-you just can´t grant an hypothesis just due the fact of(in)examining just one single object. You had to find parallel datas in other blades!-not just a handful-but several..... Agree here with the other´s collectors posts....you do not drive an Tank-are but running against an well established Bunker-System...( )! Either way-i do enjoy this post here and do like to read controversial ideas! Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Hi Adrian, You are treading the minefield ably and your article is an interesting one dealing with recondite subject matter. Whether there is consensus or not is unimportant, that you are providing alternate data and hypothesis is. keep on truckin'. John This. Folks...whether you agree with the research or not, please be curteous enough to allow it to be followed through with. Counter points and questions are always part of any valid research, but lets keep that civil and polite, the same as the counter points. Without new research, we may as well give up on all studies and just accept that everything that can be known is already known. And that is not the case. Most of us here are not about to suddenly change our minds about old theories, but an open mind has to be maintained, or this hobby is doomed. Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian S Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 G'day Christian and all, I have seen many early Yamashiro blades and I know what you are talking about, but these blades are showing stronger and bolder chikei and sunagashi in particular. It needs some more investigation I'm sure. Ichi no Seki City Museum and Sendai City Museum have between them 190 swords (not all on display), most of them Oshu. My next trip is in April I am planning to write to them and ask for special access to their Mokusa blades. Chubachi Art Museum also has examples. Iwate Museum may have to wait for my next trip. This article I wrote is actually a compendium of information and ideas I have found from Japanese sources in particular. It came about as I have been researching chemical analysis and source raw materials. I came across some interesting and strong opinions on Mokusa. The door has just opened a crack on Mokusa, when it swings open wide there will be a lot to add. This will take a few more articles and a possible re-write of this one with more information. I don't consider myself a scholar, I'm just a curious collector who put some thoughts on paper and asks some questions "where did all the Mokusa swordsmiths of the Kamakura period and their swords go to??" "why did such an old, respected and large school get little attention in the English texts?" I was finding scant information, conflicting answers and a lot that just didn't make sense. The more I found out about Mokusa , the more I felt they needed a spotlight shone onto them. Aussies have a strong ethos of the "fair go" and I felt Mokusa needed to be given the respect they deserve in Nihonto history. cheers, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 The door has just opened a crack on Mokusa, when it swings open wide there will be a lot to add The door is open...a research on another Board on the Mokusa School: http://www.thejapanesesword.com/forum/v ... f=11&t=168 Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bleed Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Dear Friends, This has been an informative discussion. I am impressed by the depth of information and opinion that was demonstrated. Thank you all and I specifically commend Adrian for assertively presenting his point of view in the face of sharp retort. My grasp of the gokaden stops well short of assessing the vigor of Yamashiro chikei or the rustic flamboyance of early Soshu blades. Two things seems pretty clear to me: 1) the roots of these technological traditions are somewhat uncertain, and 2) thinking and scholarship on their history reflects a bias toward the Kinai. In this situation, the possible contribution of northern traditions to Japanese sword making has been underplayed. Through the Heian period, Tohoku was the scene of serious combat that involved folks who were NOT aligned with the Kinai court. There absolutely were major iron-working traditions in that region. But the institutions that served to preserve very early swords in the west and central portions of Japan – noble families and major temple complexes – were not well established in this region even after it entered the Kyoto cultural sphere. It is easy for me to see what early blades in this region would be rare. I am not sure that Adrian is correct in specific detail. But I think he broadened our horizons. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Adrian. One wonders if you have been in contact with Carlo Tacchini of this forum? He has researched somewhat in this same area and has published work on his own website. He is also the source of the reference given above by Eric H on another forum. If memory serves correctly, he can be reached and his material downloaded on the tsubame website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian S Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 G'day Keith, Actually , Carlo's article and the thread on the other forum made me decide to put a few ideas out there ( blame Ford, he made me do it! ) As I have already said, most of this article is just a reflection of what others are saying and have said before. I'm just putting it together with some of my own pet theories. I haven't contacted Carlo yet, but have posted to the other forum some responses to their questions as well. I have invited him to contact me as I have some more information for him for his article also. We are both on the same road and the road goes all the way back to Scythia. I have just got a copy of the book "Kamakura Moshiogusa" by Mr. Mitsuharu Mamiya who I quote in my article. I want to find out more of what he says about General Hatakeyamauji and the relocation of Mokusa smiths to Kamakura. When I do some more research into this I will update my article with the new information. For those still following this thread, I have so far translated the the Preface, the Introduction and the Contents page ( actually my lovely wife has :D ) Mr. Mamiya lived in Kamakura and spent his whole life researching the Soshu school. The Preface is written by Sensei Watanabe of the Sano Museum and Yuichi Hiroi of the Agency for Cultural Affairs, so this book has to be taken seriously in my view. If anyone is interested I'll post the contents page, it looks to be fascinating and full of new information. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reinhard Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I would consider Masamune's style outlandish, rugged, bold How many of Masamune's famous blades did you see in hand? Let me guess. None? Well, I did. Quite a few of them. They are neither "outlandish" nor "rugged" or just "bold". They are simply the best a lover of NihonTo can imagine. Reinhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian S Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 G'day Reinhard, Let me see, in hand three recognized, another five I would consider genuine but unrecognised, including some owned by noted scholars, another two which are debatable in my eyes, but I do bow to the opinion of the owners. There is one I won't count, some will know that one. Thank you!! cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian S Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 G'day Reinhard and all, They are neither "outlandish" nor "rugged" or just "bold". They are simply the best a lover of NihonTo can imagine. I hate repeating myself, so I'll make it as clear as I can and hopefully no-one else will make me say it again! My opinion is, AFTER the time of Masamune, even his own students jiba became bolder, stronger and even garish (think Hiromitsu, Shimada etc. ) BEFORE Masamune, the jiba and the sugata was more sedate. When Masamune made swords like for example the Hocho Sukashi, or indeed the Mega Hocho (my description of the huge Hocho in Yasukuni Jinja ) , Bushi of his time, especially in Kyoto may have considered it outlandish ( from the out lands ) and rugged ( roughly irregular ) in appearance. Particular the court nobles who had a preference for quiet Heian jiba and sugata pieces. I'm not being negative here, and I was not saying bad quality! I appreciate serious inquires into my research, suppositions and conclusions please. Can we leave the sarcasm and the petty points behind and be polite. Thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian S Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 G'day to all, Luckily my businesses are not too busy at Christmas so I have some time on my hands. Here is the contents page of the first section from "Kamakura Moshiogusa " , by Mitsuharu Mamiya sensei, preface by Taeko Watanabe sensei ( Sano Museum director and acknowledged expert on Soshu-den) and Yuichi Hiroi ( Agency for Cultural Affairs and author ) Can one of our esteemed Japanese friends look this over and check it for errors as my wife is not 100% sure of some words. Contents Section 1. .Kamakura swordsmith before Shintogo Kunimitu 新藤五國光 1) Fallacy of the Kamakura swordsmiths common theory 2) Kamakura Shichi-go 鎌倉七郷 (seven villeges) and Yamanouchisho 山内庄 --- about Yamanouchisho 3) Connection between Oshu 奥州 swordsmith and Genji 源氏 --- about Oshu Mokusa 舞草 swordsmiths 4) Connection between Oshu Mokusa swordsmiths and Kamakura swordsmiths, and their work areas 5) Yamanouchisho Numahama-go 沼浜郷 (Numama 沼間) 6) Social status of Bushi group武士団 and swordsmiths around Kamakura Yamanouchisho at the early Middle ages --- the Yamanouchi-Sudo clan 山内首藤氏 and the Miura clan 三浦氏 7) Kamakura Bushi’s Oshu territories and rights of iron manufacture --- the Yamanouchi-Sudo clan and the Kasai clan 葛西氏 8 Style of Yamanouchi and Numama swordsmith, and Shintogo Kunimitsu --- Shintogo Kunimitsu and Houki 伯耆 swordsmiths --- the Miura clan Sawara 佐原流 style 9) Saimyoji-Nyudo-Tokiyori 最明寺入道時頼 (北条時頼) and Awataguchi Kunitsuna 粟田口國綱 --- about Onimaru 鬼丸 10) Kamakura Style (Soshu-den) 相州伝 11) Soshu Masamune 相州正宗 12) Conclusion Mr. Mamiya and his wife have passed away. I am going to try and find some relative to ask permission to serialize this book and post it to my website. In his introduction Mr. Mamiya says that he has studied hard on his research, it has been his life's work and although not complete he feels he needs to publish while he still has time. He also says that in the future he hopes someone will continue his work. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runagmc Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 How many Masamune have you seen Reinhard? Most of us haven't been priviledged to "leave our armchairs" and experience so much first hand. We would love for you to share the knowledge you've gained from all your experience. And thank you to Adrian for sharing your knowledge and opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 There is one I won't count, some will know that one.Yet another cryptic (for most NMB members) remark. Yes, many of "us" know that you believe you own an unrecorded Masamune, and that you won't send it for Shinsa since you believe the Japanese government will confiscate it, notwithstanding the fact that something like that never happened, at least not when it comes to a sword that previously wasn't designated Kokuhō or Jūyō Bunkazai - and even in those cases the sword isn't simply taken away from the owner, it just has to remain in Japan. But maybe I got it all wrong. The story about your “Masamune” as well as the "evidence" you provided so far. But I got one message very clearly: it's considered politically incorrect to openly question your (any?) theories, as outlandish as they may seem to those who dedicated their entire Nihontô research to Sōshū and Sōden (like moi). For twice a 5 years period - from 1988 to 1993 and from 2003 to 2008 - I basically slept on the doormat of the NBTHK, and have probably seen and handled more Yukimitsu, Masamune, Sadamune etc. than anybody else on this message board and beyond (including Reinhard; but this is certainly not a silly competition like “I’ve seen more Masamune than you, nananananah”). Does this make me an expert on Masamune? No false modesty when I answer with a clear “not really”. And those I’ve seen were all papered or designated as Kokuhō / Jūyō Bunkazai / Jūyō Bijutsuhin, no *subjective* call required on my side, which would have felt rather presumptuous to me anyhow, being a mere amateur. I think I got a pretty good idea about what makes a good (outstanding) Sōshū blade in my 30 + years of collecting and research in this direction, and lazy as I am I never saw a need to question established research (at least not generally; I wondered about some attributions in the Kyōhō-Meibutsuchō and actually was encouraged to “keep an opened mind” by the big brass; I take this as a nudge in the right direction, not necessarily an endorsement off my evaluation). Soooo, it takes a little more than “hey, I just throw out a theory that sounds convincing and get a lot of applause for it” to hope that I’ll swallow it hook, line and sinker. So far I simply don’t buy it. But talking about theories - I actually got a couple of my own, and will consider it as politically incorrect as those presented so far if anybody makes fun of them. Here's the most compelling one: Mito Kōmon (水戸黄門) got terribly tired of travelling all over his native country, always righting the wrong. He escaped Japan, a stowaway aboard a whaling vessel, changed his name, participated in the American Civil war, and was promoted to Colonel. In his later years he introduced to the American people a modified version of Karaage (唐揚げ), which also became hugely successful in many other countries. For everyone with an open mind the photographic evidence is overwhelming: (P.S.: If you feel compelled to answer, *please* don’t start your post with “G’day” or I’ll scream!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John A Stuart Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Do I see the flash of an inryo with a Tokugawa mon? I loved that show which aired its last episode this week. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Do I see the flash of an inryo with a Tokugawa mon?Shizumaré! Kono mondokoro ga me ni hairu no ka? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 an inryo with a Tokugawa mon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Debate, discuss, give counterpoints, agree or disagree. But give people a chance to present their research. Kinda lame to disagree purely for the sake of tradition. Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Kinda lame to disagree purely for the sake of tradition.What has this to do with "tradition"? I disagree because the "logic" so far presented is flawed, to say the least, and goes against everything I learned, and the up close and personal handling of more Sōshū blades than probably anyone else on this forum. Is freedom of speach more important than qualified scientific research? If so, I agree that I'm the lamest of the lame ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Guido, I don't recall mentioning your post when talking about people disagreeing for the sale of tradition. Read the entire thread and you will see where this applies..and of course is going to apply in the future with this debate. Besides debating one particular point of the study, there appears to be a heck of a lot more to the theories presented. Are they all bogus? I see some good info presented and very little from the other side. I don't have an opinion on this whole topic, but I am always interested to read where people are making an effort to present new ideas. Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Hi but I am always interested to read where people are making an effort to present new ideas. Even when they are a little far-fetched ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Considering there appear to be multiple studies being done in Japan and published info supporting some of it..then I would say yes. The Gokadden doesn't exist. But it was manufactured to make things easier. We are told that there are far more gimei swords than shoshin. Shinsa results differ from group to group, and even among the same group. NCO Shin Gunto sell for up to $3000 sometimes. There are a lot of things in life that are far fetched. Usually you listen to the points presented and then make up your own mind. Or are we incapable of doing this anymore? Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Guido,I don't recall mentioning your post when talking about people disagreeing for the sale of tradition. Then maybe you should have posted your reply under the "relevant posts" and not after I got involved - I can't read your mind, you know ... I see some good info presented and very little from the other side. I don't have an opinion on this whole topic, but I am always interested to read where people are making an effort to present new ideas.There never will be much from "the other side", naturally. If you present all of a sudden the "new idea" that the sky is green, not blue as I and everyone else sees it, you're not in a position to ask me for hard evidence to prove that I'm right. It's up to *you* to substantiate your theory, and I expect you to come up with a lot more than just a general disdain for established authorities and some wild speculation on color-blindness. Anyhow, judging from the PM's and e-mails I got, I spoke out loud - yet again? - what quite a few others think who don't want to get involved in this discussion (not established facts, mind you) for one reason or another. But feel free to chase wild geese to your heart's content without me interferring anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Then maybe you should have posted your reply under the "relevant posts" and not after I got involved - I can't read your mind, you know ... Although it may seem like it, I do sometimes try to have a life away from the pc. They would have to pay me a lot more than I get now to sit here 24 hours a day trying to post at specific times. Anyhow, judging from the PM's and e-mails I got, I spoke out loud - yet again? - what quite a few others think who don't want to get involved in this discussion (not established facts, mind you) for one reason or another. But feel free to chase wild geese to your heart's content without me interferring anymore. Ah yes..the notorious peanut gallery. Always present, always critical, never daring to commit to a public opinion. When presented with the option of enlightening everyone or mumbling in private..they choose the latter. They treat proof and info like a goverment secret that dare not be shared. It's a wonder modern science makes any headway at all. I don't know if any of Adrians study is fact or not..but I do know that if we just shoot down every opinion that goes against common belief...we would have a pretty weak field of interest and may as well just ansswer every question with "refer to the published books" Wrong? Maybe...some of it correct? Possibly. Don't agree? Show why. It's not rocket science. Brian PS - Image removed...added nothing to your point at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianmalterre Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 thank you Brian for this intervenation! Despite this comment here-i do wish everybody reading,studying and evaluating what is known-an very nice Christmas!(may those things you personally do admire-come in focus-if not yet found) Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sencho Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 from 1988 to 1993 and from 2003 to 2008 - I basically slept on the doormat of the NBTHK, So then, it is nothing to do with staggering out of a JPY15,000 per hour club at 3am with a Kyabajo on each arm, realizing that the last train left 3 hours before, you lost your Suica anyway and have no money left for a taxi?? Never slept on a doormat for any other reason!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 The only counter arguments I've seen so far, is, "This is not what I was taught!" or,"I've seen/held many swords," No actual evidence to counter the argument. Sort of reminds me about the climate change argument. I am a friend of Adrian and appreciate the work he is putting into this Theory. Personally I don't really care if this theory is right or wrong, I collect Gendai! :D There are always detractors, but let's see some real evidence to the contrary, instead of disparaging remarks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Sinclaire Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 G'day Gentlemen This is a lively thread, full of Christmas cheer, tolerance and goodwill to all, I am pleased to see! I believe that I am correct in stating, that the giant "Hosho-Masamune" in Yasaakuni Jinja's collection, mentioned earlier, is in fact shinshinto and by Naotane or someone similar. Although I have no references to hand, I do know that we have/had a similar piece in UK, it was speculated that it was made for a sumo-tori. Season's greetings Clive Sinclaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Hallam Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I'd promised myself I'd keep out of this....but integrity demands a reply and... Ah yes..the notorious peanut gallery. Always present, always critical, never daring to commit to a public opinion. When presented with the option of enlightening everyone or mumbling in private..they choose the latter. They treat proof and info like a goverment secret that dare not be shared. I'd be mortified if I was ever relegated to that gallery.... As a self proclaimed critical thinker in this hallowed field with the deserved, if only local, reputation for being something of a heretic, I must state unapologetically that I applaud all challenges to the status quo. Having said that it must be stressed that ideas, once they are presented into the public sphere, may be quite naturally subject to scrutiny and critique without any reserve. Any new or radical idea must prove itself in this uncompromising arena. This is not a matter where etiquette or reserve ought to demanded or expected. Ideas survive only by means of their veracity, their truth. This communal effort by our community ought not to be seen as quite so individualistic but perhaps more a matter of us all combining our collective understanding and insight to gradually move towards a clearer appreciation of the totality of this subject we're all so enamoured of. respectfully, fh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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