Article "New information on the Origin of Soshu-den"

[Adrian S]

G'day mate! Guido and all,

 

By the way guys, I have no problem with anyone critising any hypothesis and presenting alternatives, lets keep it polite and move on, please. I really want to talk about more important issues.

 

Guido, I'm am very glad to see your passion, I'm not taking your posts personally. I'm sure we will all laugh about this a little in the future. Now if I may, can I examine the issues in a broader light. To make it easier for replies I will use a notation form, I hope you don't mind.

 

AS I SEE IT.

1) The sword culture, history, traditions and learning we have inherited from the Yamato line of the Japanese people is biased to suit Yamato pride. It was also in essence a creation of the Honami founders and there were political issues involved too. In other words , as they were the winners in a 1000 year struggle with the original inhabitants of Japan, they get to write the history. In this case the history of the creation and the geneology of the Soshu school. I'm going to call this the "Soshu Origin myth"

2) Scholarly opinions of this Soshu Origin myth has changed little since Edo times.

3) The Soshu Origin myth is not challenged openly by the Japanese as it is culturally taboo to do so.

4) Not much new evidence has come to light in the past few hundred years to challenge the Soshu Origin myth so even those scholars who looked a little harder into older texts (talking pre Muromachi here) and had some doubts, found it easier to follow the crowd anyway.

5) In Edo times, they didn't slice up or disect, microscopically examine, chemical analyis or Xray swords. They didn't dig up any old tatara remains either. They didn't analyse data from raw materials, ancient kera, blacksmith's slag, or do computer data mapping. They didn't have the easy access to a wide array of reference material and opinions that the modern computer age provides either.

6) Recent scientific advances and archeology has finally provided some "new" information which may challenge the Soshu Origin myths to some extent. Think Darwin

7) Assumptions made from attributions based on the Soshu Origin myth may soon be under challenge.

8> It is likely that the challenges to the Soshu Origin myth will come from outside of Japan, rather than inside Japan as non Japanese are not culturally handicapped to make such challenges.

 

Guido, sure I have my own agenda, I'll openly admit it. My research has been into the science, I am not a scientist, but I am studying the questions that science is asking. Actually Mokusa is a side issue that is fascinating and I feel needs attention. Discussion please.

 

cheers,

[Adrian S]

This communal effort by our community ought not to be seen as quite so individualistic but perhaps more a matter of us all combining our collective understanding and insight to gradually move towards a clearer appreciation of the totality of this subject we're all so enamoured of.

 

Well said!

[Adrian S]

G'day Clive ( Hello Guido!),

 

Clive, I have attached the big Hocho Masamune from Yasukuni Jinja, this photos is not distorted, that is how it looks ( maybe it is even outlandish! ) It is described in this book as "Meibutsu" so I would expect it has some historical provenance earlier than shinshino. That's why I added it to my list. I'm happy to hear it may be some different Masamune if we can find a reference. From memory it is about 45cm nagasa, its huge. I have my own opinions about it but I've got myself into enough hot water on this thread.

 

Guido, can I ask a couple of questions. From all the Masamune you have seen and handled.

1) Do you consider they are ALL the same workmanship?

2) Do you consider they are ALL the same quality?

3) Do you have an explanation for your answers?

 

Just want to know how you think.

 

cheerio,

[Guido]

Guido, can I ask a couple of questions. From all the Masamune you have seen and handled.

1) Do you consider they are ALL the same workmanship?

2) Do you consider they are ALL the same quality?

3) Do you have an explanation for your answers?

 

Just want to know how you think.

I hope these questions are meant in jest. It's like asking someone "do you still beat your wife?" and only allowing the answers "yes" or "no".

 

I think you made up your mind, and nothing anybody says can change a thing. It's like you said in one of your PMs to me (paraphrased): "if you don't agree [with what I claim], you can't be trusted". Well, consider me untrustworthy then. I'm out of this "discussion" for good. Have a g'day.

[Adrian S]

G'day to all,

 

Well, seems Guido has seen a lot of Masamune but can't answer some simple questions. I don't mean to upset people, I'm just trying to answer the questions asked of me as clearly as I can. I am known for being straight to the point, maybe I should try funny pictures next time

 

For my part, I'm not giving up on research and study just because it makes me unpopular.

 

cheers,

[Guido]

Ah yes..the notorious peanut gallery.

Dear Brian, the "peanut gallery" - as you chose to call it - conists of some of the most knowledgable and long standing members of this message board - people I highly respect (as do you, I'm sure), people who would have this forum running in circles if they'd stop posting.

The reason they don't openly voice their thoughts are what makes them much more smart than I am: they know that it's a bad idea to start fighting windmills. Come to think of it, this makes me a total idiot, doesn't it?

PS - Image removed...added nothing to your point at all.

I think it did precisely that, otherwise I wouldn't have added it. Why don't you give forumites the chance to decide by themselves? Because you agree with my above statement that I'm basically an idiot (guess I had this coming, didn't I?).

[Guido]

Well, seems Guido has seen a lot of Masamune but can't answer some simple questions.

... maybe I should try funny pictures next time

Yes, they often do the trick.

[Brian]

 

[Pete Klein]

And my absolute FAVORITE of all time:

 

 

 

LOL -- try to have a Safe and Happy Holiday!

Samurai Santa wishes you a very Merry Christmas and a Safe and Happy New Year.pdf

[sanjuro]

It seems to me that the objective of research is to have it reach a fact based conclusion at its completion. To conduct research with the purpose of having it prove a conclusion that you have arrived at prematurely, is to limit its purpose and defeat the purpose of research itself. A researcher begins the task with a question he wishes to answer. Only at the completion of the research will he find the truth defined by the breadth and depth of his research regardless of any preconceptions.

 

It is not important whether Adrian is correct at this point in his research or not. What is important is that he concludes the research with an open mind prior to announcing any conclusion it has led him to. Logically, only then are the facts he presents open to discussion and possibly to contention.

 

Adrian: Take the entire journey without prejudice and by all means tell us the purpose of it and perhaps the ports of call along the way prior to announcing its ultimate destination and conclusion. The facts you discover may remain constant but your interpretation of them in the light of more complete knowledge may alter before jouney's end.

 

It is disappointing that this thread is rapidly declining to the level of sarcasm and counter sarcasm. I would rather have had it be more productive with the massive engine of knowledge that this forum commands providing a balance of views rather than a meat grinder of derision.

[Ted Tenold]

It's not rewriting history books that matters. It's the content that is rewritten that matters. As an example;

 

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/12/texas ... -standard/

 

So I have to wonder, if someone were to have what they believed to be an unrecorded Masamune and threw caution to the wind, "risking" to submit it to shinsa to only have it returned with the attribution "Den Mokusa", how would (or should) one feel about that based on this theory?

 

We're all standing on the shoulders of giants in this endevour, and lacking a time machine, contrary and controversial ideas need to have a exponentially greater amount of solid data to overcome the "heresy" factor of countering hundreds of years of established history.

[Ray Singer]

I believe that I am correct in stating, that the giant "Hosho-Masamune" in Yasaakuni Jinja's collection, mentioned earlier, is in fact shinshinto and by Naotane or someone similar.

 

Hi Clive, there was a write-up on this sword attached to the sale of a Juyo Koyama Munetsugu hocho Masamune utushimono which sold at auction. Links below.

 

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_ ... ID=4919050

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/LotD ... ID=4919050

 

The long inscription states that the sword is a copy of the large Hocho [kitchen-knife] style wakizashi listed as by Masamune and a treasure of the Egara Shrine in Kamakura Soshu Province.

 

The sword was exhibited at the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo between 2003 and August 2006 together with the original from which it was copied. An exhibition caption at the time told that the wakizashi known as 'Hocho Masamune', dating from the Nambokucho Period, was purchased on 4th November 1894 by, or for the Yasukuni Shrine, having been in the possession of the Egara Tenmangu of Kamakura in Sagami Province, and recorded in the Shuko Jushu of Matsudaira Sadanobu.

 

The original piece in the Yasukuni Shrine has a straight utsuri with nioi-based hamon of midareba with ko-notare in gunome, and these characteristics together with the style of the so-no-kurikara horimono on the blade suggest that it might have been made by Tomomitsu, or another of the Nambokucho period Bizen smiths. Interestingly there exists another copy of the same Yasukuni shrine original which is signed Munehiro, who is assumed to be an otherwise unknown pupil of Koyama Munetsugu.

[Eric H]

It is not important whether Adrian is correct at this point in his research or not

A statement by Adrian himself should not be overlooked:

Adrian said: „this article I wrote is actually a compendium of information and ideas I have found from Japanese sources in particular“.

In fact it is nothing else but a survey on the theories developed by other authors... Adrians merits are to have put together the essential conclusions of these authors.. but, are they approved by established scholars?...or merely speculations?...when Adrian speculates on traces back to Sythia?...

 

Anyway the brilliant study by Carlo G. Tacchini is highly recommended to those who are interested in the „Origins of NihonTo“.

 

Eric

[Wah]

Merry Christmas everyone,

Since this is a discussion on Masamune, I would like to add something someone may find of intrest or of use in their studies.

In 2003, I found a forum speaking about a sword store in Japan called “Takabakuhu”

by(Mr. Sudou Takanari) a sword expert, whose nick name was“Taka” and he had taken what they thought might be a genuine Masamune in on consignment. The sword was bought later by an unknown individual who went by the pen name “shumei san”.

--

Since I cannot read Japanese, a few years ago I made a mistake and thought they were talking about a sword I have connection with. This sword has nothing to do with me. I am a mere cockroach looking in from outside.

I am sharing this not for people to squish me, but to share and perhaps someone can get some info they have been seeking, so please have mercy?

--

In the past this Masamune supposedly had something to do with Usa Jinja in Oita prefecture.

In February of 2004, after the NTHK had made their decision, Mr. Takanari replied to a question on the forum and said, “I myself question this kantei. I think that the cutting method for the mei is different in almost all the swords that bear the genuine mei of Masamune, and the workmanship indicates that the sword cannot be made by the same swordmaker.”

The sword was given “Den soshu Masamune” in 2003 by NTHK, and in addition Mr. Takanari, said at the beginning, the shinsa was considering Shizu. He also made comment that he thought this was the best work of Masamune in existence.

The Masamune had Nambokucho features and the cutting method for the mei was identical to Shintogo Kunimitsu and seemed to think this Masamune was in a different category.

For anyone who would like to read the forum, I would be happy to pass it on to you as it is no longer available online. The sword store closed in 2007.

The sword went on to NBTHK shinsa in 2004.

-Did anyone see this sword in person? The forum does not seem to indicate which sword this is by Masamune, so was this one of those “unknown Masamune swords?”

-Can this work be considered an early work of Masamune since it is similar to Kunimitsu and workmanship appears Nambokucho?

 

Stephen T.

[Adrian S]

G'day Keith, Eric, Wah and all,

 

Thank you Keith, your post summed up the motivation of what I'm about to say completely. I feel the topic of the Oshu swordsmiths and the Soshu connection is too important and will not be taken seriously without presenting the body of work as a whole. I was quite wrong to drip feed some information and expect any constructive responses from doing so. You are quite right, I have questions and the answers will only appear when the research is finished.

 

I'm going back to my research and you can all read about it when it is complete. Thank you to those who at least have an open mind and show some common courtesy. My apologies, you may all go back to cigars and cognac.

 

Wah, do you know if the Masamune you mentioned passed NBTHK? Did they find any record of it? Any idea where it came from? I would love to see an oshigata and photos.

 

As for the mei. I'm not surprised that it is different.

 

cheers,

 

 

regards,

[Adrian S]

G'day Eric,

 

In fact it is nothing else but a survey on the theories developed by other authors... Adrians merits are to have put together the essential conclusions of these authors.. but, are they approved by established scholars?...or merely speculations?...when Adrian speculates on traces back to Sythia?...

 

Anyway the brilliant study by Carlo G. Tacchini is highly recommended to those who are interested in the „Origins of NihonTo“

 

Just to correct a point. All Asian steel production processes, with the possible exception of the Han chinese developments can be traced right back to Scythia. That is a very well known fact, Iron History 101. Both Carlo and I both agree that the likely introduction of steel smelting techniques come into Japan from the Korean penisula ( modified Scythian sand iron smelting techniques)and the Amur Valley (eastern Scythian iron ore smelting techniques) through two alternative routes. If you read Carlo's article in full, you will see he mentions it too.

 

Merry Christmas,

[John A Stuart]

Altai, Sakhalin, Kurile route should not be ignored.That would show first contact of indigenous peoples of Japan to Scythian smelting processes. Korean transmission route subject to alternative explanations. Nothing is that simple. I would investigate tatara and smelting techniques rather than metal characteristics of particular swords to pinpoint steel process origins before anything else. Fun stuff. John

[Adrian S]

Hello John,

 

Yes, quite right John. I was simplifying the answer a little, it is quite complex. I wasn't aware of any iron smelting sites in the Kurile islands, but since you mention it, it makes sense and needs investigation. I am currently working on possible links to Vietnam and India particularly for copper bearing magnitite. Very high copper figures are comming up in the Japanese studies. The trade routes are looking more complex than I first imagined. I would love to PM you for second opinions on some hunches. I have a friend who has been investigating iron smelter sites all over Asian, particularly Mongolia and China. He has been collecting slag and kera samples as well. Too bad we can't get into North Korea!

 

cheers,

[reinhard]

seems Guido has seen a lot of Masamune but can't answer some simple questions.

 

Simple questions can be answered. Stupid questions can't.

 

reinhard

[David Flynn]

Obnoxious arrogance defends the ignorant . Merry Christmas Happy Hanukkah etc. :D

[sanjuro]

Reihard.

It beats me why you bother posting at all. For a man that holds so much knowledge, you seem only capable of arrogant, pointless/sarcastic observations. What a chronic waste!

[Brian]

I think everyone has had enough of this one for now, and I for one need a break.

Locking it for a week. Will unlock later for additional info minus the emotions.

 

Brian