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Grandfather's bring back Revisited *Authenticity issue*

cjharpy

By cjharpy
in Nihonto

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drbvac Mentor

drbvac

Posted
Posted

Did he say the sword was not Nihonto or the signature is incorrect - gimei? The pictures of the sword in army mounts is the same as the one in the other mounts I assume but they do look a little different. I am pretty sure it is nihonto but wont comment on the signature as I have no oshigata to compare it to. Also - without any prejudice at all I do not recall hearing of or reading of the gentleman who is going to "restore" your sword. If in fact it is a decent blade as determined by a credible source "in-hand" then get a well known toshigi to restore - in fact many of them could do both for you.

cjharpy Explorer

cjharpy

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The quotes in the thread are his exact words. He think the signature is not authentic. I got his name from someone on this board or the other, I can't remember which one, but his work looks very good.

 

If anyone has anyone else they can suggest in the United States I would appreciate the information.

 

ETA: Yes it is in army mounts, all pictures are of the same sword and mounts

runagmc Mentor

runagmc

Posted
Posted

Yes, Davod Hofhine is a well known togishi with traditional training. I don't think he has completed a full apprenticeship, but that doesn't mean he isn't a competent and experienced togishi . I'm sure some will disagree with that, but that's my own outlook. I've never heard anything bad about his work, but I haven't seen it in person myself, so...

 

Bob Benson works in Hawaii and I think Jon Bowhay is working somewhere in the eastern US. They are both fully trained polishers.

 

David says your sword is likely gimei, but the craftsmanship of the sword needs to be looked at after its properly polished to be sure.

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted

Just to correct the record:

 

David has not had any traditional training. He is self taught.

 

Jon Bowhay completed a professional training in Japan.

 

As I recall, Bob trained in Japan, but not for the usual period of time. Someone correct me if I have been misinformed...

Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

Posted
Posted
Just to correct the record:

 

David has not had any traditional training. He is self taught.

 

Jon Bowhay completed a professional training in Japan.

 

As I recall, Bob trained in Japan, but not for the usual period of time. Someone correct me if I have been misinformed...

 

 

 

The statement above about David is correct, not sure about Jon, but I seem to recall the same information, and Bob is professionally trained and has received several awards and acknowledgement from the National Museum on his abilities.

cjharpy Explorer

cjharpy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Mr Cjharpy

 

where are you located? maybe we could point you to a local collector who could give an opinion and assistance

 

 

I am located in Jacksonville, FL. I really want to make sure this sword is worth restoring, so any help or suggestion would be great

Curran Grand Master

Curran

Posted
Posted

Harpy,

 

Then you have a relative no-brainer in front of you. Follow the logic:

 

That is to say you live in Jacksonville (I live in Sarasota the majority of the year).

The biggest sword show each year is San Fran in August. The second biggest is Tampa in February.

As your luck would have it, for the first time in my adult life.... there is to be an NTHK shinsa this year in Florida concurrent with the Tampa Show.

Submit your sword to the NTHK shinsa in Tampa.

If it passes shina and receives papers, then set about having it professionally polished by someone professionally trained.

 

Having a shinsa in your own back yard (Tampa) is about as easy as it ever gets with Japanese swords.

cjharpy Explorer

cjharpy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Harpy,

 

Then you have a relative no-brainer in front of you. Follow the logic:

 

That is to say you live in Jacksonville (I live in Sarasota the majority of the year).

The biggest sword show each year is San Fran in August. The second biggest is Tampa in February.

As your luck would have it, for the first time in my adult life.... there is to be an NTHK shinsa this year in Florida concurrent with the Tampa Show.

Submit your sword to the NTHK shinsa in Tampa.

If it passes shina and receives papers, then set about having it professionally polished by someone professionally trained.

 

Having a shinsa in your own back yard (Tampa) is about as easy as it ever gets with Japanese swords.

 

Is this the right website?

 

http://www.toryu-mon.com/Toryu-Mon/NTHK_Shinsa_Registration.html

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted

The statement above about David is correct, not sure about Jon, but I seem to recall the same information, and Bob is professionally trained and has received several awards and acknowledgement from the National Museum on his abilities.

 

Not to derail the thread but I am only aware of Bob receiving Nyusen (effort award) at the NBTHK polishing contest. I have never heard of any awards coming from the National Museum to Bob, or to anyone else for that matter....if you have more info, please share it......

 

And the advice here to get the blade to shinsa and then, if it passes, to a professional polisher, is golden.....

Ted Tenold Mentor

Ted Tenold

Posted
Posted

Not to derail the thread but I am only aware of Bob receiving Nyusen (effort award) at the NBTHK polishing contest. I have never heard of any awards coming from the National Museum to Bob, or to anyone else for that matter....if you have more info, please share it......

 

For clarity...from Bob's site;

 

Robert Benson is one of a small number of American experts on Japanese sword polishing. He studied sword polishing & appraisal under three top teachers, including Koke Ono, a " living treasure" in Japan and at that time was head sword polisher for the National Museum in Tokyo.

 

In 1967, Benson polished a naginata and entered the annual polishing competition sponsored by Nippon Bijitsu Token Hozon Kyokai ( The Society for the Preservation of Japanese Art Swords). His sword took the Dorokusho, ( Diligent Endeavor Award), an honor never before granted a foreigner. The Japanese recognized him as being the first non- Japanese to have studied sword polishing and first non-Japanese to have been honored by the National Museum with a certificate recognizing him as a polisher of distinction. Since then he has been restoring swords for both Japanese and American collectors . Since retiring from the Air force in 1977 he has continued his studies of the Nihonto full time.

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted
and first non-Japanese to have been honored by the National Museum with a certificate recognizing him as a polisher of distinction.

 

 

Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting....

runagmc Mentor

runagmc

Posted
Posted

Sorry for the misinformation about Mr. Hofhine. I could have sworn I had read an article and seen pictures of him working under one of the Japanese professionals... mabey it was a Japanese polisher that wasn't fully trained, I don't know. Anyway, thanks for the correction.

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted
Hi,

 

At first sight this sword seems to be shoshin.

Jacques calling shoshin? :shock:

My goodness...is hell freezing over? Are pigs flying? :rotfl: :glee: :rotfl:

 

Brian

Curran Grand Master

Curran

Posted
Posted

It would seem "Tall Tom" Helm is helping a good bit with the shinsa.

Half way down the page that you linked, for shinsa questions there is another link to Tom Helm's website.

 

Also, this email is provided: NTHK2012@toryu-mon.com

 

Sho-shin basically means "authentic". A list member known for being a harsh judge when it comes to whether a signature is authentic has spoken up and said he thinks it _at initial glance_ is authentic. That is a good thing.

 

If NTHK deems it authentic, then you have a very green light for going to get it polished. Please, please, _please_ use a qualified properly trained professional.

If the NTHK ~pink sheets~ it, ie. fails the signature as not authentic.... then you have a dilemma.

***I warn you that getting a pink sheet is NOT a guarantee it is a false signature. My first sword ~pinked~ at NTHK shinsa, but went Tokubetsu Hozon at the NBTHK shinsa (another authority in Japan)

 

Basically you go and pay $125(?) to submit the sword. It is taken in by the handlers, information taken down, and goes before a panel of experts from a well recognized Japanese organization. They give it the thrice going over, and basically vote on authenticity. The handlers process it further. Measurements and a rubbing of the tang made. Then eventually the handlers call your name and you find out whether your baby passed or failed. If it passed, you pay an additional amount of money and eventually official _Papers_ of Authentication are sent to you months later once they have been done up by the organization in Japan.

If you have ever dealt with diamonds or things like that, think of it as the equivalent of GIA grading and certification.

 

Others are most welcome to correct me. I am just trying to provide an introduction to what it will be like from your viewpoint as a newbie at his first shinsa. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.... as when I got that first ~pink sheet~ years ago.... I was hoppin mad. If you get a pink sheet, keep your temper better than I did.

 

The expense of $250 or so, plus trip to Tampa and whatnot .....

.... is easily worth the thousands of dollars wasted on having a professional polish on a sword that is not authentic. From what others say, it sounds yours has a decently well recognized artists name.... so papering it is doubly wise. As with paintings, there were many attempts to pass of forgeries of the works of greater artists.

 

Hope that helps. Good luck. I'll be in Tampa and probably at a table in the showroom.

 

Curran

cjharpy Explorer

cjharpy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
It would seem "Tall Tom" Helm is helping a good bit with the shinsa.

Half way down the page that you linked, for shinsa questions there is another link to Tom Helm's website.

 

Also, this email is provided: NTHK2012@toryu-mon.com

 

Sho-shin basically means "authentic". A list member known for being a harsh judge when it comes to whether a signature is authentic has spoken up and said he thinks it _at initial glance_ is authentic. That is a good thing.

 

If NTHK deems it authentic, then you have a very green light for going to get it polished. Please, please, _please_ use a qualified properly trained professional.

If the NTHK ~pink sheets~ it, ie. fails the signature as not authentic.... then you have a dilemma.

***I warn you that getting a pink sheet is NOT a guarantee it is a false signature. My first sword ~pinked~ at NTHK shinsa, but went Tokubetsu Hozon at the NBTHK shinsa (another authority in Japan)

 

Basically you go and pay $125(?) to submit the sword. It is taken in by the handlers, information taken down, and goes before a panel of experts from a well recognized Japanese organization. They give it the thrice going over, and basically vote on authenticity. The handlers process it further. Measurements and a rubbing of the tang made. Then eventually the handlers call your name and you find out whether your baby passed or failed. If it passed, you pay an additional amount of money and eventually official _Papers_ of Authentication are sent to you months later once they have been done up by the organization in Japan.

If you have ever dealt with diamonds or things like that, think of it as the equivalent of GIA grading and certification.

 

Others are most welcome to correct me. I am just trying to provide an introduction to what it will be like from your viewpoint as a newbie at his first shinsa. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.... as when I got that first ~pink sheet~ years ago.... I was hoppin mad. If you get a pink sheet, keep your temper better than I did.

 

The expense of $250 or so, plus trip to Tampa and whatnot .....

.... is easily worth the thousands of dollars wasted on having a professional polish on a sword that is not authentic. From what others say, it sounds yours has a decently well recognized artists name.... so papering it is doubly wise. As with paintings, there were many attempts to pass of forgeries of the works of greater artists.

 

Hope that helps. Good luck. I'll be in Tampa and probably at a table in the showroom.

 

Curran

 

Thank you for the insight!

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Great summary Curran!

In fact, if you were to perhaps edit a bit and add a little to that to elaborate a bit, I would love to add it to the FAQ in a section about USA shinsa maybe?

 

Brian

Curran Grand Master

Curran

Posted
Posted

Brian,

 

I am willing to do so, but I have not been a volunteer part of a shinsa team since 2006. Even then, they've got me doing the filing & cross reference record checking as I rubberneck all the nice fittings passing by. I guess that is what us numbers guys are suppose to be doing. Lord knows I'm helpless with the photography part of recording fittings.

Also, according to my last conversation with the elusive Jim Gilbert, the format for NTHK shinsa seems to have changed a bit.

 

In other words, my viewpoint is that of a half educated tourist. Someone like Tom Helm would certainly do it better and with more authority.

 

I also hesitate a tad on the basis of not knowing what the NTHK would or wouldn't want me to say about the process. I definitely paid more attention to the fittings group appraisals than the separate group handling blades.

 

If you want me to give it a whack, I will. Just give me a clue what I should add or delete. (PM me).

cjharpy Explorer

cjharpy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Great summary Curran!

In fact, if you were to perhaps edit a bit and add a little to that to elaborate a bit, I would love to add it to the FAQ in a section about USA shinsa maybe?

 

Brian

 

When you go to shinsa, do they only look at the blade or do they look at the fittings also?

  • 2 weeks later...
lbkmd43 Enthusiast

lbkmd43

Posted
Posted

John Bowhay is a fully trained honami school togishi who now lives in tokyo visit his website Hoffine is a self taught american polisher the other fully trained togishi is Jimmy Hayashi in san francisco LKANAREK MD

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