Gunto 1944 saya interchangable? (traditionally forged blade)

[Drago]

Hi,

 

I just bought my first Nihonto. An Ichihara Nagamitsu with a beautiful blade in probably original polish. I'm so happy.

 

Anyway, the blade is mounted in Type 1944 mounts, but they, well, I'd say they are beyond repair. So I was wondering, if I bought a replacement Type 1944 saya (there's one on eBay right now), would that fit? I mean, with machined blades it almost guaranteed to fit, but for a traditonally forged blade? Of course, I could use that new saya for spare parts to repair the old one, but if the new one would fit right away...

 

Thanks.

[Daniel]

Hi Tobias, No it will not fit. Even for type 95 Nco's they differ. You have to have one custom made for your blade. Regards Daniel

[george trotter]

Hi Tobias,

Congratulations on your new sword. If I may give you some advice (my opinion only), don't discard the original scabbard.

If it is a metal scabbard with a wood liner, it is possible to have a competent person to disassemble it and repair/clean the liner (or make a new one) and have the damaged paint matched and repainted with the same texture.

If the scabbard is lacquer on wood, the members here can probably point you to a member who can clean/repair the woodwork and re-lacquer the scabbard to match the original colour and texture.

Of course, if it is just the outside coating that is damaged and peeled off, an easy and quick way to "repair" the scabbard is to have a competent person make a leather combat cover for it...it hides a lot of sins.

Just my advice...I hate to see original artefacts separated and discarded.

Regards,

George.

[Drago]

Here's a quick rundown of what is wrong with the current saya:

1. The metal scabbard is completely missing. That includes the metal kojiri and the belt hanger. (koiguchi is complete and present)

2. The wooden liner is split about a third from the bottom.

3. The wooden liner might also have been changed to round the end and perhaps take down some of the wood towards the end. But perhaps not, I'm not sure. I'm not experienced with gunto mountings, so I can't tell.

 

Besides, the tsuka is completely useless. I already got a space complete 1944 Tsuka, that only need a new ito and some minor fitting.

 

I really want to get a complete type 1944 mount for the blade. What do you think, if I bought that saya on ebay (given that it is metal instead of just laquered), would the metal fit on my existing liner?

[Kevin]

Umm! A different metal saya *may* fit - then again, it might not. Best you can say is that it might be possible.

 

You've got three factors to consider:

 

1) the curvature (sori) of the saya versus the curvature of the sword

2) the widest dimension of the saya versus the widest dimension of the sword

3) length of sword versus that of the saya

 

Now (2) and (3) might be OK - and are easily checked - which leaves you with the curvature. That's the one that often mucks things up. Get measurements.

 

If the curvature of the sword differs from that of the saya, you're not going to change that of the saya by cold-working - it is going to have to be forge-worked. Can be done, but not many collectors or dealers do forge work. I do, but then I like beating bits of redhot metal into something different - it's relaxing and creative. :-) Not to mention it's a good way of keeping very fit. :-)

 

BTW, if forge work is needed, you better make sure you've got a steel one. Don't know if this type is seen in aluminium saya, but I have seen ally saya for the earlier type. Additionally, don't aim for one that has a perfect paint job - the paint is going to get burnt off.

 

Is it worth doing this? Yes, if you can't get a metal saya that fits and you're determined to have it in a metal saya.

 

If you've got a metal saya that fits, the rest can easily be restored, including the paint. Done it for customers before. Though it will take a bit of digging around for the right paint. Spray paint won't do - you need the proper military enamel, and preferably one made to the same sort of specs as the original paint. And textured. You might need bits repatinated as well - or not as the case may be.

 

Kevin

[Grey Doffin]

Tobias,

Slightly possible it will fit but odds are long that it won't. Also, always a chance your blade will get scratched if you put it into the new saya (you don't know what's been in there).

How about buying the mounts and putting your blade in shirasaya to display side by side. This way the blade has the best protection and no one has to know the mounts don't fit perfectly.

Grey

[Kevin]

Also, always a chance your blade will get scratched if you put it into the new saya (you don't know what's been in there).

 

That's why you get a new liner made. :-)

 

Kevin

[Daniel]

Hi again, Tobias you said your Nagamitsu were mounted in Type 3 mounts? I have never seen a Nagamitsu in Type 3 mounts with a metal saya I have only seen them with laquered wooden saya. But I could be wrong. If I'm not the metal saya would be wrong for the mounts. Well just a thought from an unexperienced collector. The best thing would might be as suggested to get a shirasaya. Kind Regards Daniel

[Drago]

Another Nagamitsu in Type 3 mounts is currently on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400259368363

 

The saya fits, mountings fit -> from that I conclude that it all belongs together. That the metal scabbard is missing is obvious form considering the look of my saya and koiguchi as well as those of the images of the eBay item I just mentioned.

 

I don't really want a shirasaya. If it had one from the beginning I wouldn't mind, but oh well, that is just my preference. Currently I'm really considering buying that gunto saya and seeing if I can fit the metal scabbard on my liner. But the saya costs 350 bucks, that's a tad much. Ach, what should I do???

[Binnawan]

I went through this 2 years ago and bought a metal saya for my gunto, hoping it would fit. It didn't, but the guy had several so I sent my blade to him and he found a perfect fit for me. Cost $185.

 

Baz

[GregD]

Im'e gonna go back to Daniels reply on this one,I have never seen a Nagamitsu in the '44 mounts with the metal saya lined with wood.Whats possibly missing on yours and the one on Ebay is a fabric wrap and the stippled laquer over it,(although I have a star stamped sword in these mounts that is just glossy laquered)I may have mentioned it earlier in this forum,aside from one "frankensword" Iv'e seen at a gunshow years ago with an oil quenched blade in it,most,if not all were plain tool steel.

Greg

[Drago]

This is the sword I bought: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11396 BUT not from him, he obviously had sold it in the meantime. I got it for half the price. The fittings and wooden liner fit the blade perfectly.

 

Now, check out the eBay link I posted. That is exactly how my fittings (what's left of them) look like. And judging from the item images the saya seems to have a metal cover.

 

EDIT: Corrected the link.

[Brian]

Wrong link. Try editing and correcting link?

 

Brian

[Drago]

(Just to make it clearer) I fixed the link.

[Ed Harbulak]

I used to own a Nagamitsu that pretty much had mounts that looked like yours. What was missing was NOT a metal covering for what you are calling the "wooden liner", but a leather combat cover that fit over the wooden saya. Since the blade originally had a leather combat cover, that also explains why the metal fitting from the bottom half of the saya are absent. Instead of looking for a metal scabbard, you should consider getting a leather combat cover made for the saya. Since many metals were becoming scarce toward the end of the war, many swords made late in the war had scabbards of a basic wooden saya with a leather combat cover. Good luck with your restoration project,

Ed

[george trotter]

I agree with Ed. The Nagamitsu you show in your own link is the correctly mounted blade. It is the standard saya (with metal sleeve) except it has never been lacquered. There was an unknown maker blade recently on ebay mounted identical to this one...no lacquer. The hilt also was without any evidence of ever having been bound and or ever having a kashira capped with the metal ringed hole for tassel, just the fuchi/tsuba/seppas. So yours is correct.

It is obvious (I think) that some were made with the intention of being simply bound, hilt and saya, with leather covers. I have seen one Type 3 that was normal lacquered wood saya but the hilt had never been bound...just had a leather cover and metal fuch/kashira (no menuki).

I think Ed's suggestion to cover the existing saya with a combat cover is correct. You should probably do it to the tsuka also, but that is a matter of taste and whether you want to have it bound in Type 3 style and fittings.

Regards.

[Drago]

Hm... Leather, never considered that. Having a leather cover made oder fining a fitting metal cover. Both seem to be very difficult/expensive. I'd prefer metal, but I'll talk to a restorer that has been suggestet to me first.

 

The tsuka will definitely be replaced by a completely new one with kashira, menuki and ito.

 

One more question. This is a slightly different topic, but it concerns my sword and the eBay offer. If you check the picture (eBay) that has a close-up of the koiguchi. There is a hole and spring there (on my sword too). I know that the hole in the fuchi is for the locking spring, hook and button, but what purpose does that serve in the koigchi? Was there another button so that you could press eihter button to draw the blade? If so, does anyone of you have a closeup of such button?

 

Thanks.

[george trotter]

In my experience, two buttons is common on higher quality Type 3 fittings...I have a Munetoshi (star stamp) with both. The purpose is to allow certainty of drawing the sword. The officer can draw the sword by pushing the button on the kashira OR pushing the button on the koiguchi...this koiguchi button is not a catch, just a push bar which pushes the kashira catch out of its slot so the sword can be drawn without pushing the kashira button (for whatever reason). OR, the officer can use both buttons and be DOUBLE sure the catch is disengaged.

Regards,

[Ed Harbulak]

The Nagamitsu I had that was missing the leather combat cover, also had the double push button catch. However, it had the normal, fully bound tsuka. So, if you didn't want to have the tsuka covered in leather, you could have the tsuka bound using with the proper late war fittings, often without menuki, and have a leather combat cover made just for the saya. At least it's a possibility that would probably be easier to accomplish rather than finding a metal scabbard and a wood liner that would fit the blade. Good luck in either case.

Ed Harbulak