for teppo enthusiasts

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, Conlan states that rifled muskets existed in Japan prior to 1600 and cites a Portugese harquebus for evidence, of course with no source references. Can anyone comment on the validity of this? Please. If it is an oddity or did the Japanese copy this technology? John

[watsonmil]

Dear John,

About 1498 a gunmaker of Leipsic, Germany, invented the rifle, that is, he was the first to cut spiral grooves in the barrel, the purpose of which is to give the bullet a rotary motion after it has left the barrel and so make it shoot straighter. Since the operation of cutting the grooves is called rifling it is easy to see how the rifle got its name. The advent of commonplace rifling waited another 300 years due to the technical difficulty involved. The chances of their being a " rifle " in Japan prior to 1600 are SLIM to say the least, and the chances of the Japanese copying this advanced technology are non existant.

... Ron Watson

PS. By the way there is no such thing as a rifled musket, .... the word musket means SMOOTHBORE.

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed with the above, except that musket seems to have originated from bolts flying from a crossbow, a mouche, or fly (think 'mosquito'). (Dic of Etymology)

 

Without source reference I find this hard to believe. If there had been such a 'rifle' in pre-Edo Japan it would surely have been a complete one-off.

 

Japanese Wiki makes no mention of it. (Not that I am a Wiki fan...) If there was a remote possibility, I am sure some Japanese person would have written it here in the history of rifling.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%A9% ... 3%E3%82%B0

[John A Stuart]

I think I shall photo the passage and post it. I was incredulous, but, have been misinformed before. John

[IanB]

Initially rifling seems to have started as straight grooves cut into the barrel to reduce the effects of fouling. These grooves were, as Ron says, later cut spirally in imitation of crossbow bolts that have the fletchings fitted at an angle to make them spin. All of this experimentation going on in Germany gave rise to the difficult problem that tasked the clergy for years, as to whether bullets that spun prevented demons sitting astride them and diverting them from their path, or, was it the spinning bullet that the demons preferred, guiding them to do their dreadful work.

Whether the Japanese ever saw rifled guns before the 19th century is open to considerable doubt. They did however encounter guns other than the bog standard muskets. Toyotomi was given a gift that included armour, pistols and a gold tent by the Governor of Goa in 1590, whilst 5 brace of flintlock pistols and their holsters were given to the shogun by the VOC in 1634 (I think that was the date). These would have been of the latest designs and luxurious. Captain John Saris gave Matsura Hoin a gold decorated gun, described as 'double locked' in 1613, thinking he was the 'King of Japan'. He also gave Tokugawa Ieyasu a similar gun when they met at Sumpu. Sadly Saris's diary does not give a shred of other information about the guns and I have failed to find any trace of them in any of the Toshogu shines. Whether any of these luxury diplomatic gift guns were rifled I doubt. German wheel locks for hunting were the main type of gun that were rifled at this date and as far as I know it was the 1640's before rifled pistols appeared - Prince Rupert demonstrated one by shooting a weathervane in the civil war.

Ian Bottomley

[John A Stuart]

It was something I doubted, but, have been corrected before. Here is the relevant section. Thanks guys. John

[watsonmil]

Dear John,

As my Grandfather pointed out to me " believe nothing of what you hear and a quarter of what you read, and only half of what you see ". When Conlan produces the " Rifle " in question then his writing will be taken seriously, ... until then it is to be taken with a grain of salt. In fact when someone puts into print one fallacy, ... it throws a bad light on anything the author writes. If there were such a Portugese " Rifle " in Japan, ... it was most certainly a ONE OFF, and to the very best of my knowledge or anyone else I have read the Japanese certainly NEVER during the Matcklock period " rifled " a single barrel.

... Ron Watson