Honami Koson

[Paul Martin]

Hi All,

 

I am working on a paper for grad school, it involves looking at things produced by Honami Koson. Would some people (I need a few examples) be kind enough to scan and post the stamp that he used on the back of his origami that he issued. I have seen two different types, and would like to know if A) one is fake, or B) when he changed stamps.

 

Also, I have heard some criticism of his attributions over the years, but can anyone direct me to a documented example of a misattribution, or some documented evidence of someone criticizing him.

 

Not looking for personal opinions, looking for hard evidence.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Best

[cabowen]

I don't think you will find any published criticism. You may find people that have submitted swords with his sayagaki to shinsa and see if the results matched his attribution....

[Ray Singer]

The sword in this thread previously had a Hon'ami Koson kinpun mei to Rai Kunitoshi. The sword did not pass in its initial submission, but after the kinpun mei was removed it papered to Enju.

 

viewtopic.php?t=6283

 

Also, not the stamp you are looking for but there are a number of examples online which may be good additional reference for your research.

 

Sayagaki

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss367.htm

http://www.hizento.net/index.php?page=sell-S1

http://www.shibuiswords.com/papers1.htm

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Sadahiro_Honma.html

 

Kinzogan mei

http://www.sho-shin.com/kanemitsu.html

 

Kinpun mei

http://www.nihonto.us/shizu_saburo_kaneuji.htm

[Eric H]

I refer to the example shown on the above specified „shibuiswords.com“ site

 

That „Kiyomaro“ is, as has been proved, gimei. The Honami Sayagaki and paper are without doubt fakes. Style and positioning of the Kao are not in accordance to legit Honami Koson papers. Furthermore the comparison between the two pictured papers „Kiyomaro" and „Nagamitsu“ show remarkable difference. The „Kiyomaro“ paper is dated 1952, whereas the "Nagamitsu" 1954. The Nagamitsu sword has been papered accordingly to the Honami Koson paper by the NBTHK.

 

Eric

[myochin]

Hi Paul,

 

The attached PDF was scanned from "Hon'Ami ka no hitobito 本阿弥家の人々"

 

Paul.

Hon'Ami seals.pdf

[Paul Martin]

Thank you everyone for their contributions. I have the collection of Kao several times over now. I had even published them in the Nakahara/Martin book

 

I was after Honomi Koson stamps. So, the red stamp on the Kiyomaro is a fake, or was used on this particular fake? Is there anywhere where I can cite from about the Kiyomaro and origami being denounced as fakes? Does Shibui swords know?

 

Best

[Eric H]

So, the red stamp on the Kiyomaro is a fake, or was used on this particular fake? Is there anywhere where I can cite from about the Kiyomaro and origami being denounced as fakes? Does Shibui swords know?

 

However the red stamp is NOT associated to the gimei Kiyomaro, it belongs to an origami on a Soshu Yukimitsu sword... NBTHK Tokubetsu Juyo Token.

 

The fact, that this „Kiyomaro“ has been offered on ebay for US $ 10,000.00

is evidence enough to answer the questions.

 

Next 3 examples of authentic Honami Koson kao and style of writing.

 

 

and a Reference of 2 styles of Kinzogan mei by Honami Koson.

 

Eric

[Paul Martin]

Hi Eric,

 

I wasn't doubting your word. As I said in my first post, I am writing an academic paper for Grad School, and they won't just accept my word for anything. I have to cite official sources.

 

So I was looking for evidence such as a kantei-sho by another organization for the same sword, or evidence of failure at shinsa or something.

 

Best

[Eric H]

A dubious Masamune Tanto with Honami Koson origami and stamp...but does this stamp match with your examples?

 

Eric

[DirkO]

Hi Eric,

 

It seems a good match for the stamp on my origami. Also notice how the 'border' of the stamp stops at the exact same place...

[Paul Martin]

Matches mine too.

[Adrian S]

g,day to all,

 

Any better photos of this piece Eric?

 

I wouldn't buy any Masamune with any type of paper, but I'd buy one without a paper (if I had the money that is) :| If you need a paper to own one , then you're not ready to own one.

 

cheers,

[Guido]

If you need a paper to own one , then you're not ready to own one.

Adrian, is that you in the photo?

[Eric H]

Dirk and Paul,

 

thank you for the confirmation of the stamp. So the „brown“ stamp is to find on the older origamis I suppose. It has also been said on the board that attributions by Honami Koson are of less to no importance nowadays. I think this is after all a risky opinion. Honami Koson has had a high reputation as sword expert, polisher and author of several important books. Personalities like Albert Yamanaka, Nagayama Kokan, IImura Kasho and Shibata Ka have studied under him. Yes, there are origamis bearing his kao and stamp, but could these papers not be faked? Is there someone who believes seriously that he was not able to recognise a faked Masamune or a faked Kiyomaro?

 

As abstract and as reference I have listed some origamis.

 

1 - MASAMUNE - Showa 11 - 1936 - gimei

2 - KUNIYUKI - Showa 21 - 1946

3 - NORISHIGE - Showa 16 - 1941 - NBTHK Hozon

4 - KIYOMARO - Showa 25 - 1952 - gimei

5 - YUKIMITSU - Showa 29 - 1954 - NBTHK Tokubetsu Juyo

6 - NAGAMITSU - Showa 29 - 1954 - NBTHK Hozon

 

Eric

[Eric H]

I wouldn't buy any Masamune with any type of paper, but I'd buy one without a paper

Well, this one was available for US $ 10,000.00...a paper can easily be thrown away!

Why did you not take the chance?

 

Eric

[cabowen]

Is there someone who believes seriously that he was not able to recognise a faked Masamune or a faked Kiyomaro?

 

I don't think that is the issue at all....In Japan, sometimes there are more important things than the truth.....

[Adrian S]

G'day Guido Eric and Paul,

 

:lol: Guido, I've put on a couple of kilos since then! :lol:

 

Eric, I didn't say I'd buy one from the internet either. If a Masamune is for sale on Fleabay, then it definately is a fake. But, it may well have been a good sword once upon a time, except the hamon looks like it drops off. Dosn't look like Masamune to me, to date I've now seen 29. Seen quite a few without papers too. In fact there is a recornised Japanese expert on Masamune who owns a ubu tachi (yes thats right , ubu!), no papers. If you own an unrecognised Masamune the best you could ever hope for is "Masamune Den" , and even to get that is long hard road. Chris hit the nail on the head.

 

cheers,

[cabowen]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but the following site has some quite interesting commentary on Masamune.....

 

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_148.htm

[jamesicus]

Thank you for that most interesting link, Chris.

[Eric H]

But, it may well have been a good sword once upon a time, except the hamon looks like it drops off. Dosn't look like Masamune to me, to date I've now seen 29

Adrian,

I must confess, unfortunately, I have never seen a Masamune in reality. Your remark however on the hamon „that drops off“ can be interpreted as a kantei point, right? As you have seen as stated a very remarkable number of legit Masamunes and I believe also Tantos, I‘d like to know your opinion on the following pictures. They are quite bad, but perhaps based on the structure of the hamon and your experience I‘m interested in your opinion. This Tanto is said to be by Masamune.

 

Eric

[Adrian S]

G'day Eric,

 

I'll probably get myself in trouble for this opinion. So I had better make things clear

 

CAUTION: HYPOTHETICAL ASSUMPTION APPROACHING!

 

I said that I have seen 29 Masamune ( I didn't count some I have seen 2 or 3 times :D ) . Out of that total 22 are recognized and have some paper or designation. Now I can tell you that there is two or even three distinct levels of workmanship in these sword. My theory is this. The Hojo Bakufu were preparing for a potential 3rd invasion from the Mongols. For the purpose of equipping an army and becoming self sufficient in the northern provinces for weapons, the Hojo "summoned" three of the best swordsmiths in Japan and established the Soshu school. These smiths still worked in their own style, the first Soshu blades being produced by Kunimitsu. From that time relatively few smiths names appear in the "direct Soshu line" for the next 100 years. My point and my hypothesis is that the factory had assistants working for them, recruited from the local smiths (refer connoisseurs book pg 198, first paragraph) whose names are not left to us. I feel a multitude of weapons were produced in a '"standard grade in Soshu style " and only special order pieces were made of the highest quality by the masters hand. Therefore my very contentious statement is , "out of 29 Masamune's I've seen, only few are special order pieces of the highest quality and artistic merit, the others may well be of the second grade or later work"

 

That brings me to this tanto. First, wrong sori, wrong nakago (my opinion) . I can see some glimpses of chikei and inazuma , but no yubashiri. Maybe Soden Bizen, would need to see it in my hand.

 

cheers,

[Eric H]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but the following site has some quite interesting commentary on Masamune.....

 

The duke ordered the swordsmith of Kyoto secretly and made the same A Tanto as the Tanto of possession imitate perfectly. Since Koetsu came at a certain time, the duke ordered him to appraise the Tanto of this imitation. Then, as soon as Honami extracted and looked at it just for a moment, he said immediately, "This is Masamune". He was harshly scolded by the duke and the receipts and payments to a duke house were forbidden to him for the time being.

 

The event can easily be interpreted controversial...the imitation was so perfect that the attribution was imperative.

 

 There is such a true story without limit. A sword is not known only by seeing just for a moment.

 The late old Mr. Choga Imamura appraised as the genuine article the imitation of Kotetsu which Kajihei of the swordsmith which makes imitation therefore forged around Meiji 20. Choga Imamura was a famous connoisseur of the swords.

 

Nobody is perfect...aside from Kajihei in this case perhaps... :lol:

 

By the way, one of the leading sword experts

Imamura Choga put forward a new theory that doubted the existence of Masamune in the Yomiuri on Meiji 29 (1896).

I think that there is no need of serious talk about the theory of Mr. Imamura Choga with its supporters who

mistake the jigane of Masamune for Kunihiro and Yasutsugu at all. The quality and the lustre of the jigane of

Masamune cannot be mistaken for that of shinto smiths. There are copies of ‘Hocho Masamune’ by Kunihiro

and ‘Wakasa Masamune’ by Yasutsugu. Both of them are good swords as shinto but it is quite easy to

differentiate them from the originals by Masamune even if you were a beginner in sword study.

Honma Junji - Nihon Koto Shi (12)

 

This thread was launched with the aim to find out the two kinds of his stamps. They have been found on two origamis...that with the red stamp is approved to be legit, the other with the brown stamp is not approved by the blade itself...is this origami a fake?...I suppose yes...it is most unlikely that Honami Koson would risk his reputation as highly regarded sword expert for an origami by courtesy.

 

Eric

[Adrian S]

G'day Eric and all,

 

At the time of Koetsu the art of kantei was in its infancy. Previous it was considered impolite to discuss a sword's value and standing as a genuine article in company and especially in front of the owner. Koetsu had to temper his opinions to suit his employers the Maeda who in turn were dealing with the sensibilties of the Imperial house, Nobunaga and Ieyasu. I wouldn't blame Koestu for a few bad calls. He had others to answer too. As far as being a perfect imitation, if a smith could do the work, he's sign the blade himself! We would see some signed examples of his magnificent workmanship, wouldn't we? I agree with Honma. The current exhibition at Sano interestingly shows Yasutsugu saiha and copies, side by side and in the same room as the best Soshu smiths. Not even close in my opinion. In the Yasutsugu copy the yubashiri was sparse, looked awkward and contrived and the hamon definately had a shinto style habuchi. I haven't seen a Kunihiro, Kotetsu, Shinkai, Sukehiro even close either. The best was Kiyomaro, he was just a little closer, but no Cuppie doll.

 

The NBTHK has disputed many of Koson's attributions over the years. So if the stamp is good or not, or the paper is a fake, a new origami is in order to confirm his opinion anyway. In the end they are all opinions anyway.

 

Kajihei was very good. I have a gimei Naotane that I suspect is Kajihei, but there is no official confirmation. Nice blade! I've had it for years and won't part with it.

 

cheers,

[cabowen]

it is most unlikely that Honami Koson would risk his reputation as highly regarded sword expert for an origami by courtesy.

 

 

I think that is a very Western way of looking at it......The Honami were known to have given origami by courtesy for 100's of years.......

[Eric H]

The Honami were known to have given origami by courtesy for 100's of years.......

 

In the section about „Hon‘ami Origami“ in the book „Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords“ no words can be found in relation to such abuse.

 

Hereafter some excerpts from that article:

 

All origami should be dated the third of the month. It is said that this date was decided by Hon‘ami Kotoku.

 

All the origami have a particular style and skillfully elegant penmanship that varies depending of the generation or period. The ink color, style of writing, and so on must be thoroughly investigated. There have always been many origami forgeries, as they are very profitable.

 

From the Meiji period onward, the surviving branch of the Hon‘ami family issued only a very small number of origami. In addition, take the utmost care with swords that claim to have origami. There are many cases in which the origami is not the original for that particular sword.

 

Those who are seriously involved in the study of Nihonto know about the importance and the fundamental role of the Goka-den in history and kantei.

 

The Goka-den method of kantei was devised by Hon‘ami Koson and his teacher Hon‘ami Ringa between the end of the Meiji period and the beginning of the Taisho period. Later, Koson popularized the system by publishing it and introducing it at sword meetings all over Japan.

 

....the young Koson came up with the idea of taking the Hon‘ami school‘s long history of secret and oral transmission of the characteristics of the smiths and converting it into his own personalized, simplified system known nowadays as the Goka-den. This was perfected and published in Koson‘s book „Nihonto no Okite to no Tokucho“.

 

BTW, the legacy of Hon‘ami Koson exceeds sky-high the alleged knowledge of those self-proclaimed experts.

 

Portrait of Hon'ami Koson - 1879-1955

 

Eric

[cabowen]

In the section about „Hon‘ami Origami“ in the book „Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords“ no words can be found in relation to such abuse.

 

Eric

 

I think you might be a bit naive to think this sort of thing will be found in a text book written by a Japanese....

 

Try talking privately to a few dozen Japanese dealers or collectors. I think you will find that while most will have nothing but good to say about Honami Koson the man, not many will put their complete faith in his attributions, especially those done during the war era.

 

How many swords do you see for sale by dealers in Japan with only a Honami Koson attribution? I don't think I have ever seen one that wasn't at least accompanied by a NBTHK kantei-sho. That should tell you something.....

 

Historically speaking, the Honami worked for the Tokugawa, appraising swords. Swords the Tokugawa gave as rewards. There were only so many genuine articles...You don't see any opportunity here for courtesy appraisals?

[Eric H]

Swords the Tokugawa gave as rewards. There were only so many genuine articles...You don't see any opportunity here for courtesy appraisals?

No... the Honamis were for hundreds of years the leading professionals in the appraisal of swords, based on their knowledge as polishers and the passing down of their secrets in sword appreciation during the centuries.

 

They were the living experts, the only official ones, trusted and supported by the Tokugawas. And important swords were given by the Tokugawas to vasalls for merits... and to trump up the swords they were fit up intentionally with Honami attributions that were not worth the paper?

 

This is how I understand your comment. Hardly to believe...and puts the Tokugawas in the role of fraudsters...where are the evidences?

 

Perhaps I have mistaken your comment...then sorry!

 

In 1714 the Kyoho Meibutsu Cho was written by the Honami at the order of the Tokugawa Shogunate, a set of 3 books with the best swords that existed at that time, a total of 222 swords.

 

To summarize, the Honamis were recognized as the ultimate authorities.

 

Eric

[DirkO]

Albert Yamanaka - a direct student to Koson - writes that seeing the Hon'ami received 10% of the value on the origami, it was not against their own interest to exagerrate the value on the blade. A lot of blades with Koson origami were also given as a gift and as such, the higher the value, the more prestigious the gift.

 

However, this only applies to the value of the blade and NOT to the maker of the blade. Origami, as opposed to Soejo, were only written by the head of the family. As was said before, the final decisions on attributions were made on the 3rd of the month during Hon'ami family gatherings, after which the origami were made.

The meeting was held by the head of the family, who served as judge. After everyone had given their opinion, the judge made the final decision.

[cabowen]

They were the living experts, the only official ones, trusted and supported by the Tokugawas. And important swords were given by the Tokugawas to vasalls for merits... and to trump up the swords they were fit up intentionally with Honami attributions that were not worth the paper?

 

This is how I understand your comment. Hardly to believe...and puts the Tokugawas in the role of fraudsters...where are the evidences?

 

Perhaps I have mistaken your comment...then sorry!

 

 

 

Dictatorships corrupt? looking out for their own interests? Trumping things up? Committing fraud?

 

No, never......

 

LIke I said, there are more important things in Japan than the truth. If you live there for an extended period, you will come to see this on a daily basis...

[Paul Martin]

Hi,

 

I hate to get drawn into this (especially as I started the thread), but I just wanted to clarify the position of Facts and Fundamentals. I think that the book is pretty honest, Nakahara sensei's opinions can appear to be extreme at sometimes, but generally honest.

 

It is a fact that Koson was a turning point in the Hon'ami family, as he realized the future, and devised the Goka-den that we all still use today thus simplifying and 'going public' with what was previously oral transmission within the family. Also, the book does criticize the family.

 

p 80 on the attribution of a Masamune.

 

p 99 (if you read between the lines) Third paragraph.

 

p 120 Questions a Hon'ami attribution to Kunitoshi

 

p130 'In the past, as the main branch of the Hon'ami school had the monopoly on the issuance of origami, if truth be told this authority was exploited when authenticating mumei blades. Furthermore, you might say that this was the reason so much effort was taken to promote Soshu works (Masamune, Sadamune, Go Yoshihiro) as a mainstream school'

 

He also, states somewhere that Koson was a very good man, but had made some mistakes, but I cannot find the page at the moment.

 

Remember! Nahahara's words not mine...

 

Best