Celluloid Same of WWII...and Type 3 mon.

[george trotter]

Hi all,

In another thread it has been mentioned that some WWII gunto mounted swords have been noted with celluloid same.

It has been conjectured that this material was intended to be an improvement over natural same as it would be hard wearing and impervious to knocks, heat, damp, humidity etc. As such it is judged to be a superior variant in gunto fittings.

OR:

Same possibly became hard to obtain so celluloid was used only begrudgingly as a replacement and so is judged to be an inferior variant to same.

In order to try to find out I have checked my notes and some responses from members to this question and I find that celluloid is quite rare, and has been found almost exclusively (so far) on medium and higher quality fittings of gendaito blades...as follows:

On Star stamp RJT blades by Muto Hidehiro 1943 Type 98; Yamagami Munetoshi 1943 Type 3.

On unstamped but RJT smith blade by Kataoka? Kunihiro date? Type 98? and Ichihara Nagamitsu Type 3.

Unidentified gendaito (or higher quality showato) blade dated 1943 Type 98.

2 X higher quality blades on ebay over the years...both Type 98 (I think one was Mantetsuto).

So...only a small and incomplete sample, but as I have looked at swords for 40 years and only seen 2 or 3 in hand...all higher end blades, it suggests to me that celluloid same was a rare, expensive item (or only a few idiots preferred it to regular same).

If you have any additional info please share.

 

A last question...although I have handled a number of Type 3 mounted swords over the years, and seem many more on ebay etc, I have never seen one with a mon (even rarer than Celluloid same?). Has anyone ever seen a mon on Type 3 fittings? ...if you have, details please? (you might have the only mon'ed Type 3 in existence.

Regards,

[Moley]

Hi George,

I have a Gunto signed Yoshe Tsugu

 

Sho Wa (Period) Ju Hachi ( 18th ) Nen (year = 1943) Ju Ichi ( 11 th November) Gatsu (Month)

 

I cannot see a hamon nd don't know if the blade i worth a polish or not. It may even be Stainless Steel ?

 

But the fittings are quality Gunto fittings and I had the Tsuka re-wrapped. The wrapper told me that the Same was celluloid and up to then I couldn't tell because it is such a good imitation.

[Moley]

Here's a shot of the mei

[george trotter]

Hi Gwyn,

That looks like the mei of one of the Seki gunto kaji...Hayakawa Yoshitsugu, started Sho 18 year, May 12. Well that may be a higher end blade, but probably not gendaito...so the theory that rarity = expensive desireable substitute on expensive gendaito may be in trouble. Maybe it was always available but most used proper same by choice?

Well I'd be interested in hearing of others also...thanks.

[Ed Harbulak]

This past weekend I examined an obviously machine made gunto by a Seki smith who signed Kanemune that has celluloid same. I happen to own a nice gendai by Nagamura Kiyonobu who is listed as having made medium grade gendaito and medium to high grade showato that also has celluloid same. My blade is very obviously a traditional forged blade and has an aluminum scabbard that I would presume would be rather uncommon. Based on these two examples, it would apper that celluloid same can be found on either the poorest quality gunto or on better quality gendaito. So what kind of same was used on a particular sword was probably either a matter of using what was available at a particular moment or perhaps the choice of the owner. We just don't have enough information so far to draw many conclusions. Just another mystery that needs solving and an interesting subject.

Ed

[george trotter]

Hi Ed, that's very interesting, thanks. The spread does seem to be wide, so you may be right. BTW the aluminium scabbards are reasonably common.I have 7 gunto mounted swords and 2 are aluminium.

Regards

[Bazza]

Hi Ed, that's very interesting, thanks. The spread does seem to be wide, so you may be right. BTW the aluminium scabbards are reasonably common.I have 7 gunto mounted swords and 2 are aluminium.

Regards

Hello George and All,

 

Aluminium or zinc, or some other alloy of zinc or "white metal"??? I was looking at one of these recently in knocked around condition and I felt the exposed metal surface and oxidation colour didn't look like aluminium. Another question: I know nothing about metal scabbard making, but if there is a join/seam this would be hard to make in aluminium as its difficulty in soldering is well known. Even welding, these days argon arc welding ( or MIG??) being the norm to exclude oxygen in the process to effect a good joint. I'm not sure that shingunto metal scabbards were made without a seam, so it seems unlikely that "white metal" scabbards were solid drawn.

 

I haven't made any serious study of this, so the nub of my question then is does anyone have definitive metallurgical analysis that "aluminium" scabbards are in fact aluminium???

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[george trotter]

Bazza san,

I too have wondered about "aluminium"...and how the seam was joined. Being so thin, and curved to boot, and aluminium being notoriously hard to gas-weld without blowing a great hole in the work (or having great big dribble lumps inside the scabbard) it is a work of art. Maybe you are right, it may be a different alloy.

One thing I do know and that is I have rarely seen one without the ugly patches of oxidation here and there...it seems to be unstoppable too? I have seen many crashed WWII Japanese aircraft in the jungles of Bougainville and Guadalcanal and I can say that even with 30 years (then) of humidity and heat, the aircraft aluminium does not oxidise in the same way these scabbards do...another mystery Bazza...thanks a lot! :lol:

 

BTW...ever seen a mon on a Type 3 gunto?

 

regards,

[Ed Harbulak]

Hi George and Bazza,

I got to thinking about aluminum scabbards and possible seams. While I haven't notice a seam and it doesn't look like there is an obvious seam in my scabbard as the outside is quite smooth and I haven't looked inside, perhaps they used an extruded aluminum tube to make a seamless aluminum scabbard. In order to insure that paint would adhere properly to the aluminum, it would probably be neccessary to give the aluminum a special treatment prior to painting. That treatment might also have an effect on corrosion years later. There are many different alloys of aluminum and the various alloys can have rather different corrosion properties. Depending on the particular aluminum alloy used for building aircraft versus what might have been used for scabbards, the corrosive effects seen years later could be quite different. One would think the details of making not only aluminum but steel scabbards should be pretty well documented somewhere. They obviously did make these things, we just don't know the details. But then there's so much we don't know.

Ed

[beakner]

Hello, I have 2 Gunto in my collection that have celluloid same. One is 'signed' & dated ...KaneZane-1943 - the other unmarked. Both have proper matched numbered fittings. Beakner

[Bruno]

I have also a Type 3 Kanemune with celluloid same. Low grade showato.

[drdata]

Perhaps the proverbial dumb q, which, they say, is the one that's never asked, so...

 

What is the obvious tell to celluloid vs genuine same? I looked at the pics in this thread and none would have jumped out to me as artificial. Is there some burn test or edge-seem give-away?

 

I have a star-stamped kanehide, and sometimes wonder if the same is not celluloid, given the way it has cracked, but I have few examples to compare with and believe real same also cracks.

 

Anyone know of modern sources for artificial ray skin as used on chitanas? I wazs unable to locate any and so bought a real (untanned) skin for use on a tool-steel projects blade.

 

Regards

[Bruno]

If you scratch it with you finger nail, you should know if it is natural or plastic same.

[John A Stuart]

Mine is obvious. Shiny and smooth like mylar. John

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Having only seen 3 or 4 celluloid same tsukas in hand I am not an expert...but, I have noticed that if you look closely you will not see cracks (or tesselation for the technically correct), between the nodules...that is, they are not a collection of bony nodules all clustered side by side on a skin base, the celluloid is a moulded sheet and the nodules are cast into it. Also, on 2 occasions I have noticed that the celluloid was slightly yellowish in colour. I think also that if you look at the edge under the fuchi, you might see that it has been filed down to fit and the finish is smoother and the lack of "cracks" is more obvious?

 

Still no-one reports seeing a mon on a Type 3 tsuka.

 

Regards,

George.

[Bruno]

Still no-one reports seeing a mon on a Type 3 tsuka.

 

I think it is due to the shape of the Type 3 kashira, a mon cannot be glued on it. Also they were made to be less flashy than Type 94/98 so probably a shiny piece of metal was not a good thing.

[Moley]

Hi Guys,

Getting interested in this topic now.

Is there anywhere I can view photo's/diagrams of all the types of Tsuka (including Type 3) side by side or underneath each other for comparison?

Or anywhere that lists the differences in the types of tsuka.

Thanking everybody in advance

 

Gwyn

[beakner]

Hi Everyone, I took mine apart again & realized that it can be rather diffficult to tell the differance by looking at them assembled. Removing the fuchi & raising the ito a bit, it becomes apparent of the differance. The real tsuka is at the top. in pic #1. Pic #2 shows real on the left. Pic # 3 & 4 show real vs celluloid & the last pic shows a closeup of just the celluloid The celluloid is thicker & you can see trimming marks. Also, both of my celluloids are full wraps. The center one even extends to to inside the fuchi. Also...as was mentioned earlier..they do have a yellowish appearance. The nodule are fairly large & not so 'crystally' as real same'. The quickest & easiest test is to touch it to your teeth. Real same' is organic & feels like sandpaper where as celluloid feels smooth. These were my observations, Beakner

[george trotter]

Thanks for those pics of the Type 98 tsukas with both real and celluloid same...it is a big help in seeing the difference.

 

Here are pics of a Type 3 tsuka (intro in year 2603 = 1943 = Type 3)...higher quality matt lacquer binding. This type is usually found with matching lacquered wood scabbard. Also found with gloss finish dark red/brown lacquered ito and black lacquered wood scabbard... and also unlacquered ito ranging from dark brown to light tan colour...usually found with matching colour painted metal scabbard.

Binding can differ in small details also, this wrap is called kattate-maki or ikkan-maki (not sure).

I agree it may be more difficult to attach a mon to these Type 3 fittings, but it would be nice if one did turn up.

 

Regards

[drdata]

tesselation. Have to love that. Edit to add: This would be the day they black out wiki.

 

Thanks all for the tips and pics on the real vs artificial same. Need to go inspect my tsukas again.

 

Hear the same tooth method for real vs fake pearls.

 

Cheers

[george trotter]

Hi Harry,

Yes...tesselation...gotta love it.

 

About the pearls...I've had a little bit to do with pearls from Broome, west coast of Australia...It's true, the "rub it on your tooth test "will tell you...pearl feels like fine sandpaper = genuine. Smooth, no "feeling" = plastic fake.

 

regards,

[obiwanknabbe]

While this is an old thread, i thought that I would add another data point. I have a higher grade Mano Masayasu Gendaito in marine mounts that has BLACK celluloid samegawa. Anyone ever see this before?

 

Related, what is the best way to clean this? As you can see there are many years of grime accumulated between the ito and the samegawa.

 

Kurt K

[Kai-Gunto]

I would use a very soft toothbrush with very little water.

[Shamsy]

Related, what is the best way to clean this? As you can see there are many years of grime accumulated between the ito and the samegawa.

Removing the patina and perhaps best proof of genuine age and use. Equivalent to stripping the original red paint off an old Ferrari 275 GTB because you'd like to paint it boy racer green. Only my opinion of course! If you still wanted to do a little cleaning, a soft bristles toothbrush would probably do it.

[vajo]

I didn't know if it helps.

 

I have a Kane Nori. The Mon was removed i think. The same is - i didn't know. Maybe canvas, shark, celluloid?

 

[Stephen]

Snake skin

[Stoney]

Hi George,

                  Referring back to your first post. Perhaps same production probably couldn't be sustained during the war. But also remember that the Japanese troops were spending almost all of their battlefield time in equatorial climates. The armed forces of any country generally try to improve the equipment of their soldiers. I believe that celluloid was perhaps marketed as an alternative to same because of the humidity experienced by most of the Japanese Army stationed throughout the Pacific. You only have to look at Gunto brought back by Aussie troops from New Guinea, Bougainville etc. Mould and Humidity takes it's toll on everything. Going to a synthetic alternative makes sense. And of course is cheaper.

[Ian]

I have a very old box of them if anybody wants some, although some are a little hard due to age!

 

Best wishes

 

Ian

[vajo]

Thank you Stephen.

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Nice to see we are always updating info.

I notice I call the tsuka of some swords the Type 3...well as you know this may well be incorrect now as some original research has appeared in recent months which shows that this "Type" may never have been actually designated. maybe it is a "Type 0" (1940) or "Contingency Type?".

Also a mon has turned up on a "Type 3" kabuto.

 

As for the celluloid same on the kaigunto...I think you will find that it is actually proper same with thick lacquer covering that fills the cracks. I would be VERY gentle in any cleaning...if at all.

Keep up the good work,