Celluloid Same of WWII...and Type 3 mon.

Stephen · January 9, 2016

id only dust with a light brush

obiwanknabbe · January 9, 2016

Hi all,

Nice to see we are always updating info.

I notice I call the tsuka of some swords the Type 3...well as you know this may well be incorrect now as some original research has appeared in recent months which shows that this "Type" may never have been actually designated. maybe it is a "Type 0" (1940) or "Contingency Type?".

Also a mon has turned up on a "Type 3" kabuto.

As for the celluloid same on the kaigunto...I think you will find that it is actually proper same with thick lacquer covering that fills the cracks. I would be VERY gentle in any cleaning...if at all.

Keep up the good work,

Oh it is definitely Celluliod. You cant see it in the pic, but under Fuchi the material is apparent. Its smooth molded plastic. Also, I will mention as an advisory, this material happens to be highly flammable. There was a little piece that had broken off a while back that i tested (i seemed to recall hearing something about early plastics causing fires.) This stuff burns like old gunpowder. That could perhaps be used as a storage safety tip .

Kurt k

Kai-Gunto · January 9, 2016

I didn't know if it helps.

I have a Kane Nori. The Mon was removed i think. The same is - i didn't know. Maybe canvas, shark, celluloid?

same_shark1.jpg

same_shark2.jpg

Shark skin.

Stephen · January 9, 2016

shark skin

https://www.google.com/search?q=shark+skin&num=20&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq_tWC9Z3KAhUDqB4KHdHdA3sQsAQIIw&biw=1366&bih=643

snake skin

https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=snake+skin&oq=s+skin&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i7i30l7j0i7i10i30j0i7i30.54713.55362.0.59845.4.4.0.0.0.0.176.543.0j4.4.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.4.543.Zd1-Yq6ZrJE

vajo · January 10, 2016

Or maybe some kind of lizzard?

i tryed to make a better photo.

If you go with the finger over it, it feels a little bit sharp.

Stephen · January 10, 2016

Then id go shark

paul griff · January 10, 2016

Hello George,

I have attached some photo's of a shin-gunto with a celluloid same . The sword is by the Toyo Hamono knife Co Ltd ., An interesting example of maybe the last attempt to produce a sword for combat purpose. Shinbu - to , a cold bearable sword made using " Tahado " steel ( nickel chromium manganese steel ). It's a very well put together sword with nice quality fittings.

Regards,

Paul..

b.hennick · January 10, 2016

Like Mr. Robinson said "Go in to plastic."

John A Stuart · January 10, 2016

My Shingunto by Kunihiro has a celluloid same. John

Kai-Gunto · January 10, 2016

Or maybe some kind of lizzard?

i tryed to make a better photo.

shark_or_snake.jpg

If you go with the finger over it, it feels a little bit sharp.

Still shark.

Dave R · January 10, 2016

Shark, aka "shagreen" was also used on traditional Tsuka in the Edo period. I have a Wakizashi Tsuka in my collection with such under the Ito just as Samagawa is so often used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shagreen

Bruce Pennington · January 22, 2016

I only have one gunto with celluloid same, and it is Type 3. I've really appreciated this discussion, since I had assumed the "fake" same was something placed there post-war to patch up or repair a damaged tsuka. Nice to know it's original!

I've followed the discussions of the term, Type 3, and feel it is simply a term commonly agreed on for communication purposes. Sure, it's not an original war term, but lacking one, we all benefit from having a recognized label so everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. Isn't that all language is anyway?

vajo · January 22, 2016

I find that type 3 swords very nice. Searching for a good one

16k · May 31, 2019

Okay, necroposting on this but to add to the list. The Mantetsu I recently bought (sa 520, nan, w, Spring 1943, already in Bruce’s database) has a celluloid same too, so climate may have been a factor... of the lack of Same material. Gotta say, though that I noticed this only recently and contrary to my other swords (granted, all of them older), this same has resisted the test of time without a crack.

PNSSHOGUN · May 31, 2019

I was never really sure if that same was celluloid or not, when I took off the Fuchi it looked like real Samegawa.

george trotter · May 31, 2019

Hi all, about celluloid and same and the reason both exist,,,,

I suddenly remembered a conversation I had with a host family I stayed with in Osaka in 1980. They told me about the final declining years of the war and some comments made within the family that indicated that the war was going (in the words of the Emperor Hirohito in his "surrender" broadcast Aug. 1945) "not necessarily to Japan's advantage". This family had some clever, observant members (botanists, engineers etc) in it and one said to my host "father" in 1944..."have you noticed that we now eat "rubbish" coastal fish these days? We don't get any deep sea tuna or shark etc any more?. The "father" answered "Well that's because the best of the catch are processed and sent to feed the Army overseas". The family member said, "No, it is because we have no deep sea vessels left, not even tuna boats. We only have rowboats who can only fish in shallow coastal waters. Everything of consequence has been sunk by the Americans...this lack of deep sea fish is actually a sign that the front is getting closer...we have only a short time left".

As it turned out he was correct. I wonder therefore, could the appearance of plastic celluloid same be a manifestation of the increasing shortage of deep see fish from which to obtain same skin? (I'm assuming ray-fish are deep sea?). Maybe from mid-1943 onwards it becomes more common because ray skin (even if coastal) same becomes harder to get because of the destruction of even in-shore vessels?

My own example of plastic celluloid same is on a good quality Rinji Seishiki Gunto dated May 1943 (Yamagami Munetoshi - Niigata - RJT blade (probably mounted in Tokyo) . My second sword is late war (good quality fittings) without any same or celluloid (coarse fabric "same"). it is a Rinji Seishiki Gunto with good quality RJT Takayama Kunihide - Kyoto - blade dated Aug. 1944. (maybe mounted in Osaka near my host families home?). I am not sure of the reason for celluloid same on swords, but maybe it was a variation available to tropic area troops and the "rough textile" same was a result of the late-war shortage of same? Just thought I'd mention it.

Regards,

vajo · May 31, 2019

Maybe thats interesting. Celluloid same is made from cellulose nitrate and campher. So celluloid same is not really a plastic. But i'm not a chemestry.

16k · May 31, 2019

I was never really sure if that same was celluloid or not, when I took off the Fuchi it looked like real Samegawa.

Actually, John, it’s not surprising asI just noticed it myself yesterday evening. I had taken the sword apart as i wanted to consolidate the cord sarute with Fray Check and upon inserting the Fuchi back i said “wow, first time I see a full wrap”. Then looking closer, I thought it looked suspicious in comparison to other swords I had and checked my resources and the net. It matches other examples I’ve found.

Hi all, about celluloid and same and the reason both exist,,,,

I suddenly remembered a conversation I had with a host family I stayed with in Osaka in 1980. They told me about the final declining years of the war and some comments made within the family that indicated that the war was going (in the words of the Emperor Hirohito in his "surrender" broadcast Aug. 1945) "not necessarily to Japan's advantage". This family had some clever, observant members (botanists, engineers etc) in it and one said to my host "father" in 1944..."have you noticed that we now eat "rubbish" coastal fish these days? We don't get any deep sea tuna or shark etc any more?. The "father" answered "Well that's because the best of the catch are processed and sent to feed the Army overseas". The family member said, "No, it is because we have no deep sea vessels left, not even tuna boats. We only have rowboats who can only fish in shallow coastal waters. Everything of consequence has been sunk by the Americans...this lack of deep sea fish is actually a sign that the front is getting closer...we have only a short time left".

As it turned out he was correct. I wonder therefore, could the appearance of plastic celluloid same be a manifestation of the increasing shortage of deep see fish from which to obtain same skin? (I'm assuming ray-fish are deep sea?). Maybe from mid-1943 onwards it becomes more common because ray skin (even if coastal) same becomes harder to get because of the destruction of even in-shore vessels?

My own example of plastic celluloid same is on a good quality Rinji Seishiki Gunto dated May 1943 (Yamagami Munetoshi - Niigata - RJT blade (probably mounted in Tokyo) . My second sword is late war (good quality fittings) without any same or celluloid (coarse fabric "same"). it is a Rinji Seishiki Gunto with good quality RJT Takayama Kunihide - Kyoto - blade dated Aug. 1944. (maybe mounted in Osaka near my host families home?). I am not sure of the reason for celluloid same on swords, but maybe it was a variation available to tropic area troops and the "rough textile" same was a result of the late-war shortage of same? Just thought I'd mention it.

Regards,

This sounds quite possible as rays are benthic fish. They don’t all need deep water (I don’t know about this particular species) but it sounds right to think that even those living in shallow waters would be the first to go in times of high demand. It may even be that a certain quota had to be reserved for the army, both to eat and use the skin.

Bettina · January 17, 2022

Stephen · January 17, 2022

14 minutes ago, Bettina said:

Interesting observation...

george trotter · January 17, 2022

Is this what you are talking about Bettina?

I was given this cellulose same wrapped hilt several years ago...can't remember if I've posted it before...but this is what the "full" wrap type look like. Very good quality IMO.

Bazza · January 17, 2022

CELLULOSE??? George, the cellulose 'same' I've seen had a yellow-ish cast. Your example IMHO is real same???

BaZZa.

george trotter · January 17, 2022

Hi Baz,

Yes, looks great, but definitely cellulose...no "cracks' between grains and moulded to fit right around to the 'seam' of each half of the hilt. Not sure it helps, but here is a close-up.

Regards,

Geo.

Bruce Pennington · January 17, 2022

Not sure why I had earlier posted that my only gunto with celluloid was that RS, because my 1941 Mantetsu has it as well. Like George's, mine hasn't yellowed, just some aging patina. The yellowing of some may be due to amount of exposure to the elements?

I have seen celluloid same' in various years, but they do seem to appear more in the last couple of years of the war. This may be due to a military order for all weapons makers to avoid using animal products, due to shortages. Nick Komiya posted the order on Warrelics (don't have the link at the moment).

PNSSHOGUN · January 17, 2022

Supposedly it was an expensive upgrade, yet I do not know where that information originated. Poor quality Tsuka on Gunto were a big problem, with many combat reports from China stating Tsuka were broken after just a single sword stroke. The advice was to use thin metal sheets to reinforce the Tsuka, lacquered Ito and full Samegawa wraps instead of panels.

george trotter · January 18, 2022

Just on the point of "yellowing", I have not paid much attention over the years, but I don't think celluloid yellows? (need more examples?)

I also don't know if celluloid same is a "upgrade" thing, or intro'd because it was found to be stronger and help prevent breaking of the hilt in combat thing.

I have not really ever "assessed" celluloid same much...just some swords have it and some don't, but looking back through this post there is a lot of info/pics that should at least get the research started as to high/low quality thing or "intro' period in war thing etc, etc.. So I'll just add my own "bits" here (some have been mentioned in the above posts since 2011).

So...I have 10 WWII gunto mounted swords. All except one are gendaito.

5 Type 98 - no celluloid....but I did have a

Muto Hidehiro star Fukuoka 2602/2 1943/Feb. (med/large nodules - stamped on back of nakago mune ko / ho)

5 RS - 3 celluloid.

Yamagami Munetoshi star Niigata 1943/5 (good qual. lacquered hilt/scabbard type - small nodules).

Nakata Kanehide star Seki 1944/5 (Seki qual. steel scabbard type , 2 buttons, dust cover seppa - small nodules).

Takashima Kunihide star Kyoto 1944/8 (high qual type from the Osaka/Hyogo/Kyoto region - 'rough' cloth? canvas? instead of same).

Not sure if this tells us anything?

Celluloid found on both types of mounts.

All my celluloids had a star stamp.

Nodule size varies

Seems to start around in 1943?...more common on RS hilts?

Regards,

paulatim · January 18, 2022

Here's the same on an RS which has just arrived. Unsigned, arsenal-made blade. No frills :-)

Regards,

Paul

george trotter · January 18, 2022

First unsigned (showato ) RS I have heard of...

DTM72 · January 19, 2022

I have an undated Emura katana with celluloid. Like @Bruce Pennington mentioned, I thought this was an after war repair. Wasn't sure what I really had. Just got a gunto over the week with sharkskin. Got my own little collection of odd tsuka wrap material. Lol

paulatim · January 19, 2022

Further to my previous post, here are a couple of more detailed pics of my RS with a celluloid (I think :-) same.

George, I've started a new thread on this mumei RS. Thanks.

Regards,

Paul

PS: sorry, that last image is inverted!

Edited January 19, 2022 by paulatim
inverted image

Sign In

Celluloid Same of WWII...and Type 3 mon.

Recommended Posts

Join the conversation