NTHK vs. NBTHK and AOI

[Bushido01]

Dear friends and members,

I recently had an interesting situation which would like to share it with you in the hope that it might help other members who may have a similar case.

Around the end of 2004, I noticed a beautiful long katana by Tsuguhira on AOI-Art’s website. That was my first time purchasing a katana online and from AOI, so I was cautious. I asked my Japanese Iaido Sensei to call and talk to Mr. Tsuruta about this sword. He did and told me it seems a good buy although it might be a little heavy.

I bought the sword and was enjoying it for two years until last year’s NTHK shinsa at NY/NJ. I thought that was a good opportunity to get my sword papered. I was very surprised and disappointed when it did not only pass the shinsa but the judge/s remarked that it’s a showato with altered nakago to look old.

I contacted AOI and told Tsuruta San what has happened. He said the NTHK’s kanteis are not very reliable these days in Japan and he believes the sword and signature is genuine but if I’m not happy with it, I can send it back to him. I had bought a few other swords from AOI since my first purchase, so I returned Tsuguhira back to him. He refunded my money in full immediately after he received the sword, which I think it was an excellent customer service. Last week, Mr. Tsuruta emailed me that he submitted the Tsuguhira to NBTHK and as he was expecting it passed the shinsa. He also offered me the sword before he puts it up for sale on his website, which again I thought was a very nice customer service. But I have bought two other swords from him (one still in Japan) since I returned the Tsuguhira and do not have a need for another Shinto right now.

I thought to share my experience with the board members as I heard a few other members mentioned their dissatisfaction with the recent NTHK shinsa and many mistakes that the judges have made. I totally understand that there might be differences of opinions when it comes to the reading of signature and whether it’s genuine and/or if the blade is mumei, the attribution may be different. But, I do not appreciate when per say experienced judges make such an off the wall comments that the sword has been altered to look old and then the same sword passes NBTHK’ shinsa in Japan.

Sincerely,

Rod

PS.The above mentioned sword is currently up on the AOI website.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06477.html

[Chris B.]

The shinsa group mentioned above is the Yoshikawa NTHK shinsa team, which is coming to Chicago in April,

 

NOT, repeat NOT, the NTHK-NPO shinsa team coming to Minneapolis this June....

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

[Rich T]

the NBTHK is correct when of course they could also be wrong. I feel there is too much SH@T these days with bagging one group and ok-ing another. We just had a huge amount of bullsh%t from that Yahoo idiot and now this.

 

I have heard this of the NTHK before, usually from disgruntled people buying crappola of Ebay and having it bounce. But I have also heard of both bad attributions and dodgy dealings at the NBTHK. The history there is common knowledge, both recent and in the 70's. Regardless of whether it is true or not, it is there. So I ask you, who is really better ?.

 

Also remember, this IS ALWAYS going to be an opinion, no matter who makes it. It has been said for years, if you don't like one answer, go get another. And in regards to shinsa, I think there will always be difference of opinion and I sometimes think this forum and others should just trash these types of thread for the better good of the community. This is not a game for mugs, it is not a cheap hobby, and you need thick skin.

 

In relation to your sword Rod, I assume being used for Iaido, it was not in polish and at what state of polish ? poor, just ok, ok ?, so my questions are, does the work match the maker ?, can you see the work clearly at the time of the NTHK shinsa ?, did Tsuruta have the blade polished before NBTHK shinsa ?????

 

I understand fully that many first time shinsa results are disappointing, but I always suggest to new collectors, buy a papered sword or two first, and learn properly before leaping into the deep end.

 

Rod, you said

But, I do not appreciate when per say experienced judges make such an off the wall comments that the sword has been altered to look old and then the same sword passes NBTHK shinsa in Japan.

 

Mate, this accusation is your opinion only. This is the part of your statement that should be deleted, as you obviously are led by others opinions before making your own. You are assuming here that you know more than the NTHK, and that in my opinion, is a big mistake.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Bushido01]

Rich,

I’m very sorry if you think my words were too strong. I had no intention to offend any one, my intention was to share what has happened and the members could and would make their own judgments. The sword was in polish when I got it and when it was submitted to NTHK. It was just the way you see it now on the AOI site. I did not loose any money on that sword as I got full refund, so I’m not soar about this in any way.

As I mentioned I have no problem with different opinions and the comment that the “nakago was altered to look old†is not an accusation, I still have the NTHK pink paper with that comments written on it and would be glad to post it. I think an altered nakago should be obvious to the eyes of experts and it wouldn’t have passed the NBTHK shinsa with an altered nakago to look old. I never said that I know more than NTHK judges, I can never even dream of such a thing. In fact I believed in their kantei and that's why I returned the sword. Again this is not my opinion against NTHK’s opinion but it’s the NBTHK’s kantei and I didn’t and wouldn’t have posted this message before the sword passed NBTHK shinsa.

Again, I’m sorry if my words were not politically correct but I had nothing but good intention and that’s what I read from your message.

Best,

Rod

[Guido]

Also remember, this IS ALWAYS going to be an opinion, no matter who makes it.

Yes, sure, but some opinions are more educated than others.

 

But I fully agree with you that most threads discussing the abilities of the different Shinsa groups by a bunch of armchair experts and Nihontô bottomfeeders (present [NMB] company, as always, excluded) are a total waste of time. If people have such little confidence in the "experts", why do they submit a blade in the first place? Write your own Kanteishô, like that guy in Ohio, and own countless Yasutsuna, Kunitoshi, Masamune and other amazing swords. I, in the meantime, will stick with the NBTHK.

[Brian]

I agree with both Guido and Rich.

While I don't want to start making rules about what we can and can't discuss...we need to remember that the organisations are fallible and human, and will make mistakes. They are however years ahead of 99% of us in their knowledge. Sometimes questionable decisions are made, but we are lucky to have other groups to go to for a second opinion. If they differ greatly, then we have a good reason to increase our own studies and also enjoy the blade for what we see in it.

These situations are never pleasant, but we can learn from them, without comming to conclusions that might be wrong or right. There does seem to be a leaning towards the NBTHK, and that is a good indicator, but there are many satisfied customers from the other groups too. But opinions from any of the groups are better than a guess, and we should still respect the work that they do. Form your own opinion, and go with the groups you trust...or go with all of them.

Rod..you have a difficult situation which I don't envy. All the more reason to follow the good advice of Rich in buying papered blades in the beginning if you can. In this case, it might not have helped, but we will always discuss the odd-ones out, whereas there are many more cases where the collectors are happy. Let's take this as one of the unique cases, learn from it and move on.

 

Regards,

Brian

[paulb]

Brian,

you got there ahead of me just as I was trying to become creative. Story of my life.

In support of yours and Rich and Guidos points I would add the following observations. I was heavily invloved in the London NTHK shinsa. I believe that the overseas shinsas are a much more difficult process than perhaps the ones carried out locally in Japan, the enviroment and time pressures are all different. Therefore I am sure that on occassion mistakes are made. The judges are, like the rest of us, human (thank God). Also in London people had the opportunity to discuss the results with panel members so if the owner was unhappy or didnt understand the result they could find out why the team beleived what they did.

However the vast majority of attributions appear to be acceptable to the the owners and I think that the benefit derived from these events is considerable and deserves recognition. Unfortunately satisfied customers rarely comment so we tend to get a one sided view.

As you say Brian the level of knowledge and quantity of reaearch material available to the shinsa teams of both NBTHK and NTHK far exceed what we have access to. Therefore I beleive their opinion carries a great deal of weight.

Taking up Gudios point about armchair experts, I was recently involved with the purchase of a blade which had passed juyo shinsa in 2002. As soon as some local "experts"saw it they commented how much easier it was to get Juyo papers now than in the past, and that the modern papers were somehow devalued. Strangely the same people when looking at a sword with much earlier Juyo papers made the point that the sword would never be papered today because it was much harder to achieve Juyo status. You cant have it both ways and there will always be the sideline swipers who try and demonstrate their superior knowledge by making supposedly learned and cynical comments.

As said by others attributions are an opinion albeit a vey educated one. People are human and do make mistakes. However in the overwhelming majority of cases the opinions of the NBTHK and NTHK are more accurrate than anything else available to us.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Blimey, after my "How expert are the experts" thread I'm staying well out of this one!

 

Simon

[Rich T]

well 2 things.

 

1: I had a nice laugh at Guido's post, you crack me up mate.

 

2: Paul raises an interesting point. Both NTHK's probably put through 30 to 50 swords and fittings a month at in a one day shinsa in Japan. In the US, UK or Europe or where ever, they will get what, 300 ??, 400 ?, anyone got a correct figure here ?, I would hate to think what was involved in the lagistics in one for these shows.

 

Personally, I think that they should cap the numbers at these events. But then, the financial's may not balance out.

 

Anyway, I was not intending to blast Rod's head off, just that nothing is simple in this game (except me :-)) and we should all learn to look before we leap

 

Cheers after a long wet lunch.

 

Rich

[paulb]

As I rember the NTHK looked at around 200 swords over the two days.

and probably a similar number of fittings

[Chris B.]

Some numbers for this discussion:

 

The NBTHK Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa looks at 1000+ swords on average every other month when they hold their shinsa.

 

The NTHK-NPO (coming to Minneapolis in June) looks at 50+ on average per month, though the average has been nearly double this the last 6 months or so.

 

The NTHK-Yoshikawa, based on what was published in their journal before they stopped publishing the shinsa results a few years ago, was 10 or so blades per month.

 

At previous US shinsa, the NTHK under Yoshikawa Kentaro looked at 400-500 items each shinsa.

 

I have no idea how many items the NTHK-Yoshikawa is putting through their shinsa in the US. While the NTHK under Yoshikawa Kentaro came to the US roughly once every 6-8 years, the NTHK-Yoshikawa group is coming every year of late.

 

The NTHK-NPO capped its intake at the last shinsa in the US at 140 items per day. This will be lowered to about 80 items per day in Minneapolis for just the reasons mentioned above- it is too easy to make mistakes when rushed.

 

These figures are a few years old but still relevent I believe.

 

Chris

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi,

 

I know I said I'd stay out of this one but I'm fickle!

 

However, I don't want to make any comments about the two shinsa organisations.......just to add an opinion about possibly altered nakago from Aoi Art.

 

My own dealings with Aoi have been extremely good (indeed, they sold me my Yasutoku which just passed NBTHK Hozon) but, as to whether they would sell a showato with an altered nakago, I'd ask you to take a look at the following sword on their website and tell me what you think.

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06311.html

 

If (and I'm only saying if)) this is a clumsily removed Showa or Seki stamp then this sword is actually illegal here in Japan.

 

Simon

[eugene walton]

that seems like a very good price for that sword- stamp or no stamp

[bdgrange]

I am not sure I should weigh in on this one but I think it bears

repeating in this particular discussion.

I was once told not to give up if I recieved a "pink paper" on a signature

by the NTHK. "Wait and either resubmit or send to the NBTHK".

This did happen to me.

I submitted a Gassan Sadakatsu in new Japanese polish with special Minatogawa atributions to the NTHK because

it would be quicker. I wanted it back for the Tai Kai.

They rejected it and charged me. This was a bitter dissapointment

and others could not believe this had happened either. Those that had

seen it, that is. We had an oshigata made and left for Mr. Tanobe of the NBTHK who looked at it later and said it looked o.k. to him. Months later it went back to Japan and it was approved "hozon" by the NBTHK and returned with a beautifull sayagaki by Tanobe san. It sold at the subsequent tai kai for $15,000.

I wish I still had it but could not turn down that many $100. bills all at

one time.

This was then spent on other works to keep the hobby alive and well.

I have a piece in Japan for polish and again to be submitted to NTHK.

I do not worry about it as I think of the previous as water under the bridge.

(this one is mumei though).

I too have bought and sold through AOI art. Someone once said ask

plenty of questions first and they will give honest answers. The key is to not rely just on their description and pics. but to question them.

kind regards

Bill Delagrange

[Mark Green]

Hi Rod,

I can feel your pain dude.

I had some REAL problems with the last shinsa in NY.

I don't mind them pinking if their not sure about a signiture, or if they can't read a signiture due to age, although you would think they would try.

I sent through a couple that I thought were gemei, just to be sure. Still nice swords though.

But they really blew a couple of mine. One to the point of likely getting skipped, and the sheet atributed to the sword next to it. Of course they could not admit to any of this, as it could have opened a big can of worms.

But it didn't take Serlock Holmes to figure out what had happened.

I have had a number of people look at the swords in question, and they all say the shinsa team was on crack. or more likely, there was a mixup of some kind.

Oh well, I just put it down as a lesson.

Not much I could do about it anyway. I will just enjoy them as they are, as paper doesn't make them any better looking, unless you plan to sell.

One day I may sell them, but I will just get what I want for them or they will not go.

Mark Green

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi Eugene,

 

If you feel that $2,289.89 (today's exchange rate)

seems like a very good price

for a non traditional, possibly machine made blade (that's what Seki and Showa stamps indicate) then be my guest!

[eugene walton]

showa stamps were put into serevice because the "experts" could not tell the swords made from foreign steel from traditonal made swords, but they have been useing foreign steel in Japan for a few hundred years- with no showa stamps to let everyone know,........ but if they are old they must be good

[Guest Simon Rowson]

I agree with you about the older use of foreign steel (although the smiths often declared the fact that they had used "nanban tetsu" in their mei/ nakago inscriptions).

 

However, the Showa and Seki stamps are just army acceptance stamps during a wartime period in Japanese history when just about anything that was shaped like a sword was acceptable.

 

To quote Richard Fuller (yet again) from his definitive book on the subject "Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks":

"The "Sho" (abbreviation for "Showa") stamp seems to be general military (probably army) stamp of no specific blade-making centre used prior to late 1941 or early 1942. The earliest observed date is May 1940. Most seem to be "sunobe abura yaki-ire" (drawn, hammered and oil-tempered mill-steel) and not arsenal-produced machine-made. Use is thought to have been restricted to blades sold through the Army Officers Club (Kaikosha), which presumably means they could be bought "off the shelf".

Swordsmiths came under the control of the Army Blade Department around late 1941 or early 1942. The "Sho" stamp seems to have been adandoned in favour of stamps relating to specific blade-producing centres. The most common of these is that of "Seki" which is normally seen on blades dating from December 1941. Neither the "Sho" or "Seki" stamps indicate the method of blade manufacture, only that they are not tamahagane gendaito."

I've owned many stamped gunto in my time and feel, like both Richard and Ohmura Tomoyuki san, that they are historically important objects. But the point I was originally making is that Showa/Seki stamped blades are illegal to own here in Japan as they are regarded purely as weapons and the nakago of the Kanefusa certainly seems to have had one such stamp clumsily removed.......something which was relevent to this thread's original theme.

 

Also, I thought that the price, whilst cheap by Aoi's usual standards is still a heck of a lot to pay for a slightly dubious blade that might not even make it through customs on the way out of Japan and which has absolutely no chance should it ever be submitted to a shinsa.

Even just as a piece of interesting wartime equipment, it has been devalued by the awful removal of it's stamp.

 

Simon

[eugene walton]

I agree the stamp should never be removed, or doctored

[loui]

Buy a sword for the quality of the sword, not for the papers it has. It is obvious that humans make mistakes by nature - so Shinsa teams make mistakes all the time.

 

What would you rather have - a sword with papers that is poor quality, or a sword that has no papers and is of great quality?

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[Guido]

a sword with papers that is poor quality

Any examples?

[Stephen]

Louie ya been gone to long. Going to any of the Mid west shows?

[loui]

Examples, well, ya, tons - just go to a shinsa in the USA and look at all the crap that gets papered. And there are still lots of blades out there that aren't papered - not too hard to find.

 

Stephen, probably not goin gto any shows anytime soon - trying to clear out my backlog of swords I have waiting on the wall for polish. Between a bad back, bad wrists, 2 kids, 1 full time job and 2 businesses it is tough to find time. But the kids are in daycare now and physically I am doing well - so I am back to the stones. Incidently, I am working on a few interesting projects that I will be adding to my site that people can watch as I progress.

 

Regards,

[Russell P]

Hi

 

I understand that shinsa is used by traders to get more money for a piece.

 

I understand that people submit to get the highest point score.

 

But I would like to know more about my blades should I submit to shinsa or ask this forum.

 

I have done this in the past and got opinions for which I am grateful.

 

Should I submit them as well?

 

They are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to points.

 

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

 

Russell

[Brian]

Russell,

 

Remember that online opinions will always remain just that: opinions. By their nature, they can sedom be more than an educated guess, and I think are always provided as such. You can only tell so much without having the blade in hand, and pictures don't always tell the whole story.

The best way to get better results is through shinsa. Another good way is to get together with a sword group near you, if there is one.

By "bottom of the pile" what type of points results do you mean? I understand that passing any shinsa is already a fairly good thing, no matter what result. On the other hand, if you mean points rankings such as found in Hawleys, then these don't always mean too much.

You have nothing to lose by posting them here over a period of time, but understand the limitations of that. Sometimes a lack of replies means that not much can be added to what you can already see..and it is time to get it to someone qualified who can see it in-hand.

Look forward to seeing some of them, and do hope you are able to get some info on them here.

 

Regards,

Brian

[loui]

Yes, by all means post them on sword groups for opinions, but like Brian says you will find many different opinions on swords - some educated and wrong, some educated and close, and some bang on.

 

Shinsa's can be good, I am just not impressed by the commercialism of them these days, there must be alot of money in shinsa's as we see a couple a year now in the US? That's quite alot - and the way they pump through them mistakes do get made. The key is to not be heart broken when a blade doesn't do well at shinsa, chances are that it would do better at the next shinsa it was submitted to - unfortunatly.

 

Regards

 

Louis

[Jean]

Another point of view (in fact its my own opinion and I share it - French pun difficult to share -)

 

My blades went trough Hozon shinsa, they were fine blades but as Kamakura/Nambokucho suriage blades I wanted an attribution :

 

One got papered to Nambokucho Nio, I clearly saw Yamato influence in the blade but it had not high shinogi.

 

Another one came with Kamakura Enju, I was close as I thought of Rai school.

 

Last I got, at the beginning of the year is a fantastic Naoe Shizu blade (that I probably shall submit to juyo one day), but I would have been unable to kantei it having never seen one in real in my whole life

 

IMHO, Shinsa is not made to say if we have a good sword or not, it is made for kantei when we are in doubt. We must be able to see the quality of a blade by ourselvelves

[Darcy]

I understand that shinsa is used by traders to get more money for a piece.

 

Just to put that in context, this is a function of the consumers not the distributors of swords.

 

If I have an amazing blade, buyers (and this is more true of the west than in Japan) will pay one amount for it if I have passed it through Juyo, and will tell me that the same price is too much if I have not passed it through Juyo.

 

It's the same blade regardless.

 

So what the consumers are saying is that they on their own are unable to ascertain the value of the blade, period. They will put a cap on the value based on the papers. Should a community of experts elevate the status of the papers, then the consumers will raise the cap on what they are willing to spend for the sword.

 

The most expensive sword I have ever touched that was for sale had a price tag of $500,000 USD and the papers were NBTHK Hozon papers. Not even Tokubetsu Hozon. The knowing people who were in the room all had a laugh about how the sword would do in the market. Those that could evaluate it would consider it cheap, those who couldn't would say "the price is crazy because it's *only* Hozon."

 

Papers are a confirmation, the problem is that a lot of people will use them as justification. The two things are different. There are many Tokubetsu Hozon blades that may never get Juyo that are finer and more enjoyable work than certain Juyo pieces, and that is all correct. Juyo means important, it doesn't mean excellent though excellence is one of the criteria that are gathered up in the overall equation that makes a Juyo Token.

[Rich T]

Papers are a confirmation, the problem is that a lot of people will use them as justification. The two things are different. There are many Tokubetsu Hozon blades that may never get Juyo that are finer and more enjoyable work than certain Juyo pieces, and that is all correct. Juyo means important, it doesn't mean excellent though excellence is one of the criteria that are gathered up in the overall equation that makes a Juyo Token.

 

With this. nicely put DB.

 

Rich