newbie question on beauty

[John A Stuart]

Mine as well. Certain statements must be accompanied with supporting evidence, ie. "The most prized artistic swords can be mediocre cutters..." What specific prized sword is refered to and who tested it's cutting ability? As stated before, test cutting has to be performed by an expert swordsman eg. Asada family. However beyond the skill involved therein is the skill of the polisher to create a superbly sharp edge. Whereas the sword must be of a quality to take a sharp edge and the smith being better would ensure this, test cutting demonstrates more the skill of the polisher. Too, this is a site where the Japanese sword is already held in an high esteem and looking to find cause to hold it less so is disingenuous at the least. Of course I await convincing argument with supporting data to prove it. John

[Ford Hallam]

original post deleted...I should know better

[b.hennick]

Here is a slightly different take on things.

The first thing for me is shape. If a blade has a poor shape then it can't be vey functional or very beautiful. Shape first drew me to Hizento. Hizen blades as a group tend to have great shape.

Second comes pattern or hada. I love great hada. Hizento have great hada unless shintetsu is showing. Then the blade is not so beautiful.

Third comes hamon/edge. I used to be attracted to the wild hamon of Masahiro and Tadakuni. With experience I have come to appreciates suguha.

Lastly the tang. I good smith spends the time and effort to creat a well finished tang. File marks, mei shape all need to be correct. If a blade has everything else but has a poor tang it is not going to be a great sword.

With time what constitutes a beautiful sword changes in one's mind. I know that when I attended a Soshu exhibit I fell in love with a blade by Norishige. It took time, effort and a big expenditure to become the temporary custodian of a blade by Etchu Norishige a great sword!

So here I have laid out fouth things that a great sword needs to have. If any is missing then the blade may be functional but not great.

[Rivkin]

Dear John,

 

If holding "in high esteem" is a matter of religion of this site - I truly apologize and have no intention to bug you further with my presence.

 

A sword is a sword. It is an object with a utilitarian purpose - hardened steel on the outside, soft iron inside. Almost all nations made them with the same technologies, just differently "tooled" for their specific goal. Paraphrasing by memory Dr. Sato - all people went similar roads, so studying the way sword developed somewhere in India one will find parallels and answers to its development in Japan.

 

Then each culture in the world develops its way to make it artistic. An Indian would spend his days putting "staircase" on his wootz blade. A Japanese would slave on a stunning hamon and would use a specific tamahagane because it results in better looking blade. A Russian might cover the blade with gold and bluing. A European will make an intricate pattern based on mixture of different steels.

 

There is no magic here - just different tastes and different applications of similar technologies.

 

But if you want to believe that Japanese swords (best in the world) live by different rules - I can not in honest faith be a part of this discussion .

 

P.S. And I love Norishige!

 

Sincerely yours,

 

Kira R.

[cabowen]

I don't recall anyone claiming magic or that Japanese swords "live by different rules" (whatever that means???). What has been claimed, in an honest reply to your somewhat intellectually dishonest inquiry, was that to understand why Japanese swords are considered art one needs to understand the Japanese aesthetics and cultural context within which the sword was created and appreciated in Japan. Ignoring the cultural context of any art or artifact results in a shallow, "all swords are sticks of steel" evaluation that, while accurate in a clinical way, fails to catch the essence that differentiates the Japanese sword from other edged weapons....

[Henry Wilson]

Calm Down!

 

[runagmc]

One thing that makes the Japanese sword so interesting to study is that it has lasted fairly consistently to modern times much more so than any other edged weapon. Most others don't have such a long and interesting history as Nihonto. I dont know of any other place that has taken on an edge weapon as a part of their cultural identity as much as Japan has.

 

For me it's hard to say Nihonto are a better than any other edged weapon (even though they are my favorite). There are to many variables, such as intended use. Nihonto may not have done well against heavy European armor, but you have to remeber they had other weapons like yari that were more suited for this.

 

As far as the argument that the more subdued elements in Nihonto (like suguha) aren't held in as high regard as more flambouyant elements is just wrong. Some of the the most renowned groups of swordsmithing in history such as Awataguchi, Rai, Tadayoshi are considered to have obtained the highest levels of beauty with a more subdued asthetic nature. One of the most beautiful blades I have ever seen had suguha/ko-notare hamon.

 

Since we don't use swords as weapons anymore we might tend to put most of the emphasis on visable craftsmanship rather than pure cutting ability, but thats to be expected I think.

 

If you don't see why we hold Nihonto in such high esteem even after studying them for yourself, then I'm afraid no amount of us trying to explain it is going to help.

[Jean]

This topic is not "why is Nihonto considered as Art?".

 

This topic is "what is Art?" so it can be applied in all fields

[Ken-Hawaii]

This thread is approaching the ridiculous. A Nihonto is art because I think it's art, no more & no less. If you don't think it's art, then it isn't. Period.

 

Wikipedia has a pretty good definition:

 

1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"

2. Works produced by such skill and imagination.

 

Can we leave it at that & move on to something a bit more quantitative?

 

Ken

[Henry Wilson]

 

Wikipedia has a pretty good definition:

 

1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"

2. Works produced by such skill and imagination.

 

I don't think they are good definitions and seem a bit vague. Music is art which seems to have been overlooked....

 

To me, art is something that creates an emotion.... Just like this thread.

[Lee Bray]

Every single book I've read says that the beauty of Japanese sword is inseparable from its functionality.

Disrespectfull as I am - it's hard to believe it is so.

 

For many, the beauty of the Japanese sword lies in its graceful curved shape, the pattern of the steel grain and the hamon.

These are all vitally important to the functionality of the sword; the curve facilitates cutting, the hada a product of improving the initially poor(prior to forging) steel quality, and the hamon a product of the differential hardening which was needed to create the soft spine for resilience and the hard edge for staying sharp in use.

So with that said, what is it you don't believe?

 

So my question is, as a newbie - what should I be looking for in a sword to call it a true work of art?

 

As a newbie, I think you're reaching a long way to call anything a true work of art. In any field of interest.

Newbies cannot make that call. As a newbie myself, I do not feel educated enough to call any Japanese sword a true work of art.

Sure, there are plenty of blades that I like and that I feel are more 'artistic' than other blades, but I'm not qualified enough to make that call.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

All Japanese swords are weapons, All Japanese swords are not pieces of art, only some of them. The difficulty being to be able to see the difference.

[IanB]

All, What an interesting thread. Two factors spring to mind that have not been mentioned yet I feel have a bearing on the fascination shown by so many towards the Japanese sword. Neither has anything to do with 'art' per se, but does I think influence our views.

The first is the simple fact that so many swords are signed by their maker. The study of Japanese swords and their appreciation is, in my opinion, enhanced by the fact that we can figuratively speaking, 'put a face' to a blade. It is only in the field of Japanese blades that scholars have been able to compile relatively complete biographies and inter-relationships between smiths that stretch back almost 1000 years. This in my view adds a dimension which is not really possible for most other fields of arms study, excepting perhaps for items from late 18th and 19th century. Viking or medieval swords are fascinating and can in many cases be regarded as artistic, but at best we might have a name and nothing more. Knowing Ulthbert or someone made a blade is interesting but 'who he'?

The second factor is perhaps even more tenuous and that is the abundance of Japanese swords, even those from the distant past when compared to swords of other cultures. Having worked in a major European museum I have often smiled to myself when my colleagues waxed lyrical over a rough lump of iron that is the pommel of a medieval sword. In reality, many were little more than simple blacksmith's work, but because of their rarity were elevated to an artistic status way above the level they really justified. Such items as swords from the English civil war generally have chiselled guards that are crude to the point of banality, in Japanese terms, yet are considered 'artistic' by enthusiasts of such things. Indeed much is in the eye of the beholder.

Ian Bottomley

[O koumori]

Trying to define “art” or “beauty” is like trying to define “quality.” An object exhibiting high quality goes far beyond just meeting someone’s requirements – there is always something “extra” that sets it apart.

In metallurgical analysis, as mentioned, a small piece of metal is cut from the object to be analyzed, It is then repeatedly “polished” using finer and finer grits, and sometimes etched, until the grain structure is revealed for microscopic study. Does such an image evoke “art?” It could – especially if the observer understands the intricacy of what the crystalline structures and their interfaces, relative quantities, and layered structure represent in terms of the properties of what is being examined. It represents man’s manipulations of raw elements; the proper harnessing and application of metal and fire, of earth and water, to yield those desired properties.

In Nihonto, these structures are revealed without the need for microscopes. A blade in good polish reveals all - with the exception of the core laminations. I find it quite interesting that modern metallographic techniques mimic Japanese sword polishing on a much smaller scale.

Truly, art is in the eye of the beholder, as interpreted by experience and knowledge.

Dan K.

[cabowen]

It is interesting to note how the cultures of origin valued their weapons and the place they held in their native societies. Without a doubt there was certainly advanced metallurgical techniques used outside of Japan and high quality weapons produced but where else besides Japan do we see so many examples from so long ago in such pristine condition? In what other culture did the sword play as broad a role? Where else can we find recorded histories of the craftsman as complete, detailed, and lengthy? Clearly the sword in Japan was much more than a weapon and while there are plainly other cultures that produced quality weapons with a long history of veneration of said weapons, I think one would be hard pressed to find any other culture that has put the time and resources into sword production that Japan has, or to find a culture that has the sword as a centerpiece in its central spiritual foundation.

 

On the level of pure craftsmanship, I have seen many high quality Indian, Viking, and other European swords but nothing among them to compare to the exquisite perfection of the Goto or Awataguchi, not even close....Has anyone? I would be very interested in seeing any examples of Western swords that can compare on the basis of pure craftsmanship.....

[doug e lewis]

the Japanese did not start importing iron ore or steel in any quantity until Edo period. for the 800 yrs. before that the mined their own, mostly from iron sands --- but, Kira, you already knew that, right?

 

the Viking swords, etc, were twisted metal, not differentially tempered like Japanese swords, and did not, except by accident, have a core of low carbon steel that gives tachi their flexible durability. The Damascus swords made of wortz [sp] steel are fine works of art and fantastic weapons, but most "experts"--- not you I guess --- consider them inferior to the Japanese tachi.

 

I think Jean is right ---- you should collect something else, if you find nihonto so worthy of your above criticism. I also collect lighters, Japanese prints, netsuke, rocks, wonderful dogs and cats, and wonderful women (loaned, not owned].

[chrisf]

I think Jean is right ---- you should collect something else, if you find nihonto so worthy of your above criticism. .

 

WRONG!Kira is entitled to his opinion and the right to express it and is at least keeping an open mind which is more than can be said for some board members.

One of the principle reasons for the continuance and longevity of the Japanese sword is the plain fact that Japan was a closed society that did not develop militarily until after the Meiji Restoration whereas in the West swords were considered obsolete and muskets,rifles and artillery ruled the battlefields.

The Japanese sword has also almost disappeared from history on a number of occasions as in the late 19th century when all things Western became the fad and swords were turned into nails or used for the rims on wagon wheels and saved again twice by Kurihara Hikosaburo in the 20th century.

The Japanese sword at its best is a masterpiece of forging,tempering and polishing and may be considered art.It will however still chip,bend or break and is not perfect as a weapon if you consider the swordfighting adage that the point always beats the edge.

[cabowen]

I think Jean is right ---- you should collect something else, if you find nihonto so worthy of your above criticism. .

 

WRONG!Kira is entitled to his opinion and the right to express it and is at least keeping an open mind which is more than can be said for some board members.

 

By your logic, how can Jean be wrong if we are all entitled to our opinions?

 

The Japanese sword has also almost disappeared from history on a number of occasions as in the late 19th century when all things Western became the fad and swords were turned into nails or used for the rims on wagon wheels and saved again twice by Kurihara Hikosaburo in the 20th century.

 

The craft, not the swords themselves, almost disappeared. And swords were never made into nails and wagon wheels.....

 

 

 

The Japanese sword at its best is a masterpiece of forging,tempering and polishing and may be considered art.It will however still chip,bend or break and is not perfect as a weapon if you consider the swordfighting adage that the point always beats the edge.

 

No one has said that it wouldn't chip, bend, or break. It is however about as perfect a weapon as can be made for its intended purpose in the hands of an expert in Japanese sword usage.

 

Whose sword fighting adage is it that says the point always beats the edge? I doubt it is Japanese.....

[george trotter]

Well, while the members are having an interesting discussion here, I rather suspect that Kira has left the building... like Lord Kira did after he had provoked a fatal reaction from Lord Asano, muttering, "...my work here is done...".

 

I may be wrong, but I think Kira is probably a disgruntled person (former or present member? or perhaps a troll) who just wanted to toss in a hand-grenade.

Consider: He was a "new" member (this thread was his 4th post)...he said he was a "newbie" to nihonto, yet he had a considerable grasp of terminology and nihonto and had handled and described swords such as Kotetsu etc. He was fully conversant with the practical user needs of swords and the artistic appreciation of them. He asked a "question" that was really a statement saying "prove me wrong"!.

I think he probably was involved in an unsatisfactory clash on this topic in the past, or had a grudge or something and this was a bit of fun for him.

Just my 2 cents...

[sanjuro]

Yet the thread lives on...............

[CurtisR]

I was reading Kira's posts and the responses and may be able to bring a modern-day, practical viewpoint to the argument for BOTH sides.

 

Curran made the point:

 

I still keep two swords.

One is clearly Art with a functional form, probably never intended to be used in combat.

The other is decidedly function, with what I consider pleasing Art in its workmanship. It is also what feels most comfortable to what I would take into a theoretical sword fight, if I can't do the Indiana Jones and take a gun.

 

Well said Curran!

 

In my personal life, I carry a handgun to work every day (and also when I'm off - it's required). I carry a gun that is functional, well-made, absolutely reliable - because my life and lives of others depend on it working well, no matter what - and when violence (God forbid) does happen, it will help me win the battle. This handgun is not "pretty" or modified. If it was a Nihonto, and I was a Samurai, I would want the same to carry each day. I also know or and have held absolutely beautifully made, custom handguns that are kept almost as sacred objects similar to the top Nihonto smith's blades. These are not carried...it would be disgusting to treat them that way, and they were MADE to be objects of beauty by highly skilled smiths/makers. They will also - if used - do as much damage and kill one as dead as the 'ugly' one I carry each day.

 

I've seen plenty of dead people, and none of them left a dying declaration of "But I wanted to be killed with a famous (insert gun, knife, sword, ball-bat, etc.)".

 

If I *had to*, I could carry a famous-maker blade and know it would work just as well as the one that is well-made ( read: "functional") but not as beautiful. But unless I had to,why would I?

 

I think this adds to both sides or the argument, but it's a reality that I know.

 

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Curt R.

[sanjuro]

.........if you consider the swordfighting adage that the point always beats the edge.

 

An adage of european origin applicable to sabre fighting.

 

From a notable source: Rigorous reasoning from inapplicable assumptions yields the world's most durable nonsense.

[cabowen]

I was reading Kira's posts and the responses and may be able to bring a modern-day, practical viewpoint to the argument for BOTH sides.

 

I am not sure exactly what Kira's argument is.....it seemed he was asking questions he had already decided the answers to....

 

I am chalking this one up as a troll.....

[cabowen]

An adage of european origin applicable to sabre fighting.

 

As I figured....One of the first thing you learn when you spend any time with Japanese swords is that they were designed for cutting, not thrusting....

[Jean]

I have a stupid/intriguing question, I love them, just for my understanding and probably for a lot of foreigners:

 

Why English word used is sword and not saber? Don't you have the distinction?

 

In French we say : "the Japanese saber" and not "the Japanese sword"

 

Sword implies two cutting eges ( in French) and saber one.

 

Chris is of course right, it is made for slashing

[John A Stuart]

Hi Jean, sword

1.A weapon with a long metal blade and a hilt with a handguard, used for thrusting or striking and now typically worn as part of ceremonial regalia

Synonyms:

sabre - glaive - saber - blade

Sabre US, saber

1. (Military / Arms & Armour (excluding Firearms)) a stout single-edged cavalry sword, having a curved blade

2. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Fencing) a sword used in fencing, having a narrow V-shaped blade, a semicircular guard, and a slightly curved hand

3. (Military) a cavalry soldier

vb

(Military / Arms & Armour (excluding Firearms)) (tr) to injure or kill with a sabre

[via French from German (dialect) Sabel, from Middle High German sebel, perhaps from Magyar száblya; compare Russian sablya sabre]

[doug e lewis]

US Calvary saber has one edge; sabre used in sport fencing has one and a third. some Japanese tachi -- as we all know, right -- have two edges. the edge -- well the whole darn tachi -- has specific names for shape, edge, etc.

 

generally, I think, a sword and sabre are used interchangeably, and indiscriminately, by the public; only weapons experts or collectors bother to discriminate. the US Calvary sabre [and the Marine Corp dress sabre] is primarily a slashing weapon, with a sharp point you could thrust with if necessary, like the tachi.

I think the only pure thrusting sword is the rapier [epee in sport]. the Damascus sword is a slasher, but has a point. the rapier ... correct me if I am wrong [need I ask] .. has no slashing side per se. John kind of covered this better before i posted this, but since I took the time.....

 

Kira [i like the Lord Kira reference] seems to be a devils advocate here. and has done his work well. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and to even express it vigorously, even when they are wrong! certain facts can be argued about the merits of various swords, sabres, tachi, broadswords, rapiers, etc. the aesthetics, the supjective may be discussed, but not argued. it is a matter of taste and beauty which is the eye of the beholder.

 

you can try to be logical about the appreciation of beauty in a tachi, or any weapon, painting, etc. but you might a well try to push a rope into the ocean. Remember: Logic is used in an argument is an organized system where you can make incorrect statements with confidence and impunity. [hummm ..quote is off, but ya get the idea]

 

anyway ... we are having fun, right?

[Jean]

In conclusion, sword is generic and sabre specific

[doug e lewis]

well, i guess. In English, anyway. We are such a people that revels in generalities and avoids the specific, it seems.

 

kind of another reason I like the Japanese culture and nihonto in particular. there is a specific name for almost everything.

 

so.... thread done? should we put a fork in it?

[chrisf]

Chris,the reference to Jean was meant to be a quote from the previous post so there was no contradiction.

Like it or not,there are references to swords being broken up in the way described,can't remember exactly where,might have been Lord Redesdale or Dobree,many late 19th and early 20thC swordsmiths were unemployed as were makers of kodogu hence large numbers of trinkets,toys and curios made by highly skilled artisans.

The Japanese sword is not a slashing weapon,it is a cutting weapon and its efficiency is based on the draw cut.

Point vs edge has its origins in fighting with rapiers not sabres,often used with a main gauche dagger in similar style to the use of a wakizashi or o-tanto in Ni-To ryu.

I too could not quite fathom the point that Kira was trying to make especially after CAB had explained all the relevant points to look for and agree with George that there was a whiff of the agent provocateur in the posts but this is a board for discussion and the question has been discussed and hopefully we have added to our knowledge.