NihontoEurope Posted October 16, 2011 Report Posted October 16, 2011 Hi all, Is this Sayagaki correct according to the sword? The length of the sword is correct according to the text on the saya. But the rest? SUKEMUNE of SHIMADA. /Martin Quote
Grey Doffin Posted October 16, 2011 Report Posted October 16, 2011 Hi Martin, Yes, Shimada Sukemune. Grey Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 16, 2011 Author Report Posted October 16, 2011 Grey, Can the sword be trusted as such? Does it say which gen. or era? /Martin Quote
Grey Doffin Posted October 17, 2011 Report Posted October 17, 2011 Martin, I can't tell much just form the pictures you posted. Maybe someone else can tell you if that's a proper blade for Shimada Sukemune. Grey Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Posted October 17, 2011 Piers & Grey, Thanks! I will change the header and hopefully someone who knows the Shimada school can get some info. /Martin Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Posted October 25, 2011 Hi all, Found out some more information during my research: According to sayagaki it says: ① Shimada Sukemune ② Bearing no signature ③ Sculpture of the dragon ④ Kojyuro Sukemune ⑤KANEI ,1624～1645 ⑥ 1974 ⑦April ⑧One day ⑨End The "小十郎助宗" part gave me more info on NihontoClub and subsequently more to dig out from books (Hawley). Apparently he changed name to Sukehiro at one time and was from Shinano. So, anyone of you guys have any info? Adding dump and image from Hawley. Thank you /Martin Quote
Toryu2020 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Posted October 26, 2011 The hi appears to have age, while the horimono do not, maybe just the photos but I would want to see many more before spending money on this one... -t Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Posted October 26, 2011 Thomas, I will add some photos I have on disk. Only one new, but I can get some more later. TOKO TAIKAN 326 has some info. I do not have that book. Thank you! /Martin Quote
sanjuro Posted October 26, 2011 Report Posted October 26, 2011 Need much more and better pictures to even guess at this one. Yes it could be a Sukemune. At least the hamon and what can be seen of the hada has a shimada appearance that is in keeping with Sukemune. The horimono are more recent than the blade as has been observed. This is not definitive as photographs shown do not convey any real indications. The horimono appear too clean and well defined to match the age of the blade and the state of polish. I own four Shimada blades and always have a problem defining them and attributing them with certainty even when they are signed. At the end of the day shinsa is the most help, and this may be the case in this instance because this school contained much variation according to location, but can we see more and better pics please? Quote
Brian Posted October 26, 2011 Report Posted October 26, 2011 I have seen this particular horimono far too often lately, and were I a conspiracy theorist, I would postulate a theory that there is someone, or some group out there, taking blades such as Gendaito and ordinary swords, and mass engraving them with this horimono... But that would be a ridiculous theory.....wouldn't it? Something is up through....can't be that many identical horimono on a variety of swords all lookijng recent. Not saying this is one of them..but I really think there is a story waiting to break somewhere out there in Nihontoworld. Brian Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Posted October 26, 2011 Another thing, do not have evidence, could be that the owner back in the days (days being pre 1900's) wanted to pimp up the sword like we do on our cars today. We change the wheels on our cars to make them more beautiful. I tend to compare swords with cars as an analogy, but it works. So, the owner, could have made this post production for a number of reasons. One could be for beauty and another after a polish or two when forging errors might have appeared. I will post some more pics on the Horroblimo... /Martin Quote
cabowen Posted October 26, 2011 Report Posted October 26, 2011 No doubt this rather poor horimono was added later and most likely to hide some openings/forging flaws.... Quote
sanjuro Posted October 26, 2011 Report Posted October 26, 2011 the owner, could have made this post production for a number of reasons. One could be for beauty If this is the reason then it failed horribly. This horimono as Chris has observed is not a good quality one. At best it was more likely done to hide some defect, or more recently to make the sword more 'appealing'. I would go for the former reason. Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Posted October 29, 2011 Hello, Here is an image of the horomono I promised. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37236755/H2.jpg /Martin Quote
Brian Posted October 29, 2011 Report Posted October 29, 2011 Looks rough. But does appear to have been polished down a bit, and that is also distorting the strokes a lot. It's isn't a great horimono, but originally I think it may have been fair, but not the worst... Brian Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Posted October 29, 2011 Brian, Thank you. Do you think it was there as per production/"pre sale" or carved in at a later stage? It is probably a polisher that is responsible for the sayagaki. /Martin Quote
runagmc Posted October 30, 2011 Report Posted October 30, 2011 Judging by the amount of wear from polishing, I'd say the horimono has likely been there a while. It still may not be original though... It obviously wasn't cut by a very experienced hand... Quote
cabowen Posted October 30, 2011 Report Posted October 30, 2011 Both the quality of the carving and the location are tip offs..... Quote
sanjuro Posted October 30, 2011 Report Posted October 30, 2011 In comparison to a well cut artistic horimono, this one is fairly ordinary bordering on relatively ghastly. Intruding into the shinogi as one of the elements does, and disrupting the line of the hi is not well located in any interpretation of artistic. The overall effect is clumsy and contrived. The dragon appears to be disproportionate, (Skinny in the front half and fat below the hind legs) Sorry but that's how it looks to me in all the photographs. It screams "I am hiding something". As Chris has said, these are located in such a way as to hide defects. Those defects have probably been uncovered by repeated polishing and the horimono added to disguise them. It may not be what you want to hear, but it is definitely 'out there' as a caution. It may also be worth a mention that although I have been an admirer of Shimada (and Soshu generally) work for quite a few years, I have seen very few Shimada blades with horimono as original features. Quote
NihontoEurope Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Posted November 1, 2011 Chris, Keith, Adam, Brian, Grey, Piers and last but not least Thomas, Thanks for commenting. Great info about the Horomino. If we forget the carving and take a look at the sword. Would it be Sukemune of Shimada? It looks nice and since it is not signed it is not gimei : ) I think the sayagaki can be trusted as to the connection to the sword, but is it a correct assumtion? The swords from Sukemune I have seen so far does not have: 1. Horomino 2. Bi-Hi I'm still in the dark : ) /Martin Quote
sanjuro Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Martin. It is very difficult, make that impossible, with the pictures provided to give any definitive answers. It is difficult enough with really hi res pictures. We have only partials to see so far and no idea what the entire blade looks like at all. So, better pics if possible. No promises even then. Now, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to play devil's advocate. If you are going to ignore the horimono then because we do not know who wrote it, also ignore the sayagaki. What we are left with is a mumei blade. Is it likely to be a Shimada blade? Frankly it could be anything. Knowing a little of Shimada work, it would not have suggested itself as a Shimada blade to me on the basis of what we can see. Shimada hada is usually fairly distinctive and this doesnt quite cut it as a Shimada example. It could be Shimada but I doubt it. Sukemune/Sukehiro are not to my knowledge particularly sought after smiths in any case, Hirosuke shodai and nidai being arguably the most well known of the school and much earlier although Sagami Tomishi (Yoshisuke 1) a student of Masamune, reputedly founded the school in 1455. There are what appear to be slag inclusions and open folds or some forging flaws in and around the smaller of the two horimono. At least one of these blemishes seems to coincide with similar blemishes within the dragon horimono on the opposite face of the blade. Fatal flaw? Perhaps, but photographs can be misleading. The ha is reduced by polishing. A Shimada blade (if it is a Shimada), would have had a wider hamon than this. Ergo, this is a somewhat tired blade that is not a particularly recogniseable or good example of Shimada work. It also has potentially undefined flaws....... These are just my own initial observations based on limited pictorial evidence. I do apologise for what may seem a negative response to your query about being left in the dark, but sometimes the darkness hides only a creature of greater darkness within. On the other hand it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness....... God, I hate cliche's. However, since you appear to like the blade, can you live with this blade's shortcomings either real or suspected? Quote
NihontoEurope Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Posted November 2, 2011 Keith, Thanks. I like worst case scenarios : ) I'm trying to add some swords to the Get-This-One-Papered pile. I think it could be fun to see to what smith this sword might be attributed to. /Martin Quote
sanjuro Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Martin. I think that perhaps an attribution to a school is about the most you can hope for. But good luck anyhow. Be sure to post the results :D Quote
NihontoEurope Posted November 4, 2011 Author Report Posted November 4, 2011 Keith, I will post results. I am planning to attend the Tampa session. /Martin Quote
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