CurtisR Posted October 10, 2011 Report Posted October 10, 2011 I've been eye-ing this Tsuba and really enjoy the wood pattern....am wondeirng thouse if the signature if forged, and find it suspicious that the grain patter goes all the way to the edge of the piece (Seppadia?). Thoughts are appreciated! Curt R. Quote
Soshin Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 Hi Curtis R., Could you take a photo of the complete side with the signature? Being able to see the complete seppa-dai as well as the signature is important. I think this would be helpful. Also listing the measurements of the tsuba including the thickness is important as well. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
CurtisR Posted October 11, 2011 Author Report Posted October 11, 2011 Hi David, Here is what the seller sent me - states it's "Myochin" (I'm thinking there were several levels of students for this school / maker?) --- omote & ura pics attached. Size is described as about 8sm x 7cm but not thickness is given. From the photos it looks to be decent work but thought I'd see what others thought before beginning the bargaining process. I hope this helps? Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Curt R. Quote
Henry Wilson Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 Dear Curt From the pictures it looks like a real tsuba. Whether or not is gimei is hard to tell. Signature aside, I am not sure Myochin made such mokume tsuba and I associate these tsuba more with Edo period sword smiths who made a tusba occasionally. Myochin is a armour making family lineage and something more Katchushi is what I would expect and the tsuba in question has a basic shape that looks Edo period Tosho to me... It might be a good idea to compare the signature with verified ones to help decide if it is gimei or not. Personally I think it is not gimei, only because the work is not that great. It is possible it is real Myochin (even though the design is not what i would expect), but 工房作 or "studio produced" Myochin and not the work of a master, but one of his workshop attendants. However, it is hard to tell for sure unless the pictures are of a better resolution or better still, it can be seen in hand. Just my two yen worth and I could be very wrong in my analysis. Best regards Quote
CurtisR Posted October 11, 2011 Author Report Posted October 11, 2011 Thank you very much for your thoughts Henry - I will see if the price is 'reasonable', or if we can reach that point. I looked at some different examples and it just didn't seem to have the finesse of other works. I won't hold you to it being a true work, but it's nice to know it could be. If i get it in my hands, I'll absolutely get sharper images as well. Many thanks!! Curt R. Quote
Soshin Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 Hi Curtis R., I must disagree in part with Henry analysis. Myochin often made tsuba in the late Edo Period with this type of mokume "wood grain" pattern. I have a signed Myochin tsuba with this type of design. The only problem I see is that the mei (i.e. signature) isn't consistent with what I normally see how the Myochin school would sign their tsuba. Normally they would have a personal artist name along with the school name of Myochin. They would also include some honorfic title such a Osumi Kami (大隅守) along with personal artsit name and the school name. If the signature is authentic then tsuba night have been below the standards of the person making it and therefore he didn't write his personal name of the tsuba. Just some possible ideas to explain the strange signature other then it being just a gimei made by someone trying to copy Myochin style. My impression is that acid etching looks a bit over the top even for the Myochin school of the late Edo Period. I hope you find this information helpful. Attached is a photo of a tsuba in my collection that I think the mei is real. Here is a typical structure of a Myochin signature: Right of the Nakago-ana: Myochin Osumi (no) kami (明珎大隅守), Left of the Nakago-ana: Ki (no) Yoshinobu (紀義信) Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Henry Wilson Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 Hi David Thanks for the information on Myochin as I don't know that much about the group. It would be great if you could post pictures of your mokume Myochin as reference. Cheers Quote
CurtisR Posted October 11, 2011 Author Report Posted October 11, 2011 Thank you Mr. Stiles - your explanation makes very good sense! The Tsuba I'm pondering does look to be nicely constructed, but slightly 'off center' (although perhaps this doesn't matter) but may have been enough for the personal artist to leave off his name. In short, I like the Tsuba itself and if I can negotiate a decent price, I'll probably pick it up just for my collection vs. a real investment piece. One of the things I'm enjoying most about all of this is the (I mean this sincerely) detective work involved in figuring it all out or at least coming up with 'Probable Cause' for lack of a better term . Hopefully, better photos to follow in a day or so ~~ Sincerelt, Curt R. Quote
Justin Grant Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 There is a Myochin tsuba signed in the ad by Grey (number that has a simple mei. This tsuba has nothing to do with the work in question, but it was a rather simple mei so maybe it has something to help you with. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9729&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Quote
Curran Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 David's well written reply basically nails it dead center. The Myochin school is a long long long line, with some important offshoots like the Saotome school. Their work varied considerably through the ages, but one of the things they are most know for is the visible grain pattern- especially the mokume grain pattern tsubas. I happened to be reading up on the school today, looking for more information on the pre-Edo period of the school. There is not much in English that I am aware, and one reference claims they didn't make tsuba pre Edo. I don't hold with that, as the tsuba I was studying seems firmly late Muromachi and NBTHK papered to Myochin. Quote
Soshin Posted October 11, 2011 Report Posted October 11, 2011 Justin Grant said: There is a Myochin tsuba signed in the ad by Grey (number that has a simple mei. This tsuba has nothing to do with the work in question, but it was a rather simple mei so maybe it has something to help you with. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9729&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Hi Justin, I did some research on Kunihiro as I have a late Edo Period tsuba made with the same name but signed differently then Grey's example. Bob Haynes in his index on page 744 lists the name Kunihiro but thinks that the massive number of tsuba with that name is likely the work of four or five different people signing the name Kunihiro and mostly working in a Tosho style during the late Edo Period in Bushū province (i.e. Edo). I don't think I necessary agree with Skip's note about the tsuba being from a member of the Myochin School. Thanks Henry and Curran, Here is a quick scan of my late Edo Period Myochin school tsuba. It was made for a tanto or a ko-wakazashi and measures 6.5 ✕ 6.0 cm with a thickness of 0.4 cm at the rim. In the inside of the nakago-ana and ryohitsu-ana a total of eight different layers can be observed. Here is another photo I have that shows layering I was talking about in the inside surfaces of the nakago-ana and ryohitsu-ana. Layers can also be observed in the rim as well. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Henry Wilson Posted October 12, 2011 Report Posted October 12, 2011 Here is a tsuba that once belonged to me signed Shinryo for reference. He was an Edo era sword smith. It seems to have more in common with the initial Myochin then David's. Quote
CurtisR Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Posted October 12, 2011 Most interesting - and yes, the Shinryo does have the same 'feel' to it as the one I'm looking over (more refined and I can certainly see the difference, which is very helpful). The more I see of the mokome grain, the more I enjoy it in the different forms. Thanks everyone for their help - I'm learning a ton! Sincere thanks, Curt R. Quote
Soshin Posted October 12, 2011 Report Posted October 12, 2011 Hi Henry, Here is a link to another tsuba made my the same Myochin artisan who I think made my tsuba: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/fab8bff2a87f7f9d4145266da38cd3ed. Notice the similar patina color of the iron and mokume jitate (木目仕立). The resolution prevents the direct comparison of signatures. The tsuba is listed as a Shipo Tsuba because of the Cloisonné inlay designs done by another artisan. The complete mei (銘) on this tsuba is (神道五鐵鍛明珎紀義信). The longer mei might because this is a katana sized tsuba also using the techniques of another artisan. The tsuba came up in a Japanese Google search for of Ki Yoshinobu "紀義信". This might be an example of two different artisans working together to make a wonderful tsuba. The tsuba plate maker being the same person or related to the person who made my tsuba. Just some ideas. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Grey Doffin Posted October 12, 2011 Report Posted October 12, 2011 http://www.ebay.com/itm/380374610878?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 Grey Quote
christianmalterre Posted October 13, 2011 Report Posted October 13, 2011 just found this one here in mine mess: Tsuba 2100 An rather seldom Myochin-Sukashi one. Taken from the ultra-rare Behrens collection publication. I think,Curt,you´ll enjoy it. Christian Quote
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