kanji inside a shira saya tsuka

[David McDonald]

Dear All

 

I am working a tsuka-maki display and am working on

translating a note on the inside of a shira-saya tsuka.

 

Here is what I have so far

備Bi

前zen

国Kuni

西Sai

大dai

寺ji

住ju

?

?

?

?

是Kore

?

造tsukuru

之kore

 

and on the other side

文Bun

久kyū

三san

?

天

?

十ju

月gatsu

?

?

 

Any buddy know this smith?

thanks for any help

 

later

david mcdonald

[Nobody]

備Bi

前zen

国Kuni

西Sai

大dai

寺ji

住ju

鞘 Saya (unsure?)

師 shi (unsure?)

中 Naka

村 mura

是Kore

助 suke

造tsukuru

之kore

 

and on the other side

文Bun

久kyū

三san

癸 muzunoto

亥 i

十ju

月gatsu

上 Jo

旬 jun

[David McDonald]

Dear Koichi

 

Thanks and I agree with most of what you found and thanks

a lot for the help.

 

From what I can see I do not think the kanji are saya and shi

the Naka mura look ok.

 

So I have added an other image of just the middle part.

I hope this helps.

 

One image I have photoshopped to make better?

What do you think?

 

later

david

 

備Bi

 

鞘 Saya (unsure?)

師 shi (unsure?)

中 Naka

村 mura

[/b]

[Bugyotsuji]

刳る 剔 could it start with one of these, eguru, or teki?

 

Or could it be an old place name in Saidaiji, Bizen?

[David McDonald]

Dear Piers

 

I can see why you pick these to but I just do not think these are the correct kanji.

 

I was thinking the whole thing was just the signature from the blade that went with the shira saya.

 

I have another shira saya tsuka that has

備Bi

州shu

長Osa

船fune

祐Suke

定sada

 

永Ei

禄roku

十ju

年Nen

二ni

月gatsu

日hi

 

二Ni

尺shaku

一ichi

寸sun

四yon

分bu

 

So you have the smith, date and the length of the sword. So for the problem tsuka (top of page)

I have been looking for a shinshinto smith. No luck. So when Koichi thought saya maker that would have been great. But the kanji do not seem to match? Are Koichi's kanji correct but just a variation of the kanji??

 

Thanks to all that have looked.

 

later

david mcdonald

 

 

 

刳る 剔 could it start with one of these, eguru, or teki?

 

Or could it be an old place name in Saidaiji, Bizen?

[Bugyotsuji]

Are these written down the inside of one internal side of the Tsuka, and not on the Tsunagi? In quite small letters? Just wondering if the saya maker merely made a note of which sword he was working on and botched the kanji in the process, since no-one else was going to be splitting it open and looking at it... :|

[David McDonald]

Dear Piers

 

It is the inside of the tsuka so no one would see.

So I was thinking it was a note on which sword he was working.

 

I did not think about a botched kanji. Might work.

 

thanks for the thought

 

later

david

 

Are these written down the inside of one internal side of the Tsuka, and not on the Tsunagi? In quite small letters? Just wondering if the saya maker merely made a note of which sword he was working on and botched the kanji in the process, since no-one else was going to be splitting it open and looking at it... :|

[Toryu2020]

David -

I think you'd be better off listening to Moriyama-San, this guy has an odd way with some of his characters and though i think it maybe says Togishi-shi 研師, rather than saya-shi he clearly spotted this the first time...

-t

[Nobody]

Morita san told me that he thought it read 削師 (kezurishi). I also tend to think so.

BTW, could you show us the mei on the nakago which was wrapped by the tsuka?

[Toryu2020]

I also considered Koku-shi 刻師 there being more strokes than for Togi-shi but not knowing if it has any carvings context would make the Togi-shi the most likely suspect. Then again given how he has deformed the kanji for -Shi it could be anything

-t

[Brian]

Morita san told me that he thought it read 削師 (kezurishi). I also tend to think so.

BTW, could you show us the mei on the nakago which was wrapped by the tsuka?

If both Morita san and Moriyama san think it probably reads kezurishi, then I think this is about as solid as you can get. Not sure of the meaning, but I would go wth that.

 

Brian

[Toryu2020]

Brian -

I hear what you're saying, thus I advised David to trust them. At the same time though I am trying to learn from these examples not just accept it as written. Kezuru to scrape is just as good a possibility as the others posited but lacks the correct number of strokes. Pick up a brush and write Shi as in the photo and it is easy to see how the writer could have come up with what we see.

 

Trying my best to deform Togi, Saya, Koku and Kezuru in the same way I fail to find a good match. I have a few Japanese readers around my house and from context Togi-shi and or Saya-shi are the best fit and on initial reading what all have seen. Followed of course by "what odd characters!"

 

Afterall who is most likely to make a shirasaya but a polisher or saya-maker. I expect everyone else has tuned this out but I am curious if Moriyama-san or Morita-san or anyone else for that matter has been able to reproduce the character we see from one known in a convincing manner.

 

-t

[David McDonald]

Dear All

 

I want to thank everyone very much for the comments and the help.

It is always educational to watch and read as this group struggles with

unusual Japanese sword knowledge. The information is great!

 

Set up at a gun show this weekend and saw a 36 inch long army dress sabre.

Naval dagger picked up at a garage sell for $5. I was able to buy at $175. Not bad.

 

Then a sword was brought in -- modern junk tsuba, habaki, tsuka was on the sword

and the sword was ground on, bent, rusted and they ground off part of the signature.

What was left was -- kuni Osafune Sukesada.

 

The sword had much pitting and a crack. The owner wanted to know what could be

done??

 

I did have an old saya to help the sword and we oil and uchiko it to see a little

choji hamon. Must have been a great blade at one time.

 

Now off to Minneapolis.

Stop by my table if you come by the show and see the tsuka.

 

later

david

 

Brian -

I hear what you're saying, thus I advised David to trust them. At the same time though I am trying to learn from these examples not just accept it as written. Kezuru to scrape is just as good a possibility as the others posited but lacks the correct number of strokes. Pick up a brush and write Shi as in the photo and it is easy to see how the writer could have come up with what we see.

 

Trying my best to deform Togi, Saya, Koku and Kezuru in the same way I fail to find a good match. I have a few Japanese readers around my house and from context Togi-shi and or Saya-shi are the best fit and on initial reading what all have seen. Followed of course by "what odd characters!"

 

Afterall who is most likely to make a shirasaya but a polisher or saya-maker. I expect everyone else has tuned this out but I am curious if Moriyama-san or Morita-san or anyone else for that matter has been able to reproduce the character we see from one known in a convincing manner.

 

-t