NBTHK Shinsa and Tokyo Customs Department

[Curran]

In submitting 2 tsuba and a fittings set to the NBTHK for shinsa,

the Tokyo Customs House has seized them and declared them part of weapons despite their antique nature.

Even if recognized as antiques, Tokyo Customs wants tariff on the value above 200,000 yen.

 

The tsuba have old NBTHK papers with them in the package documenting them. They also have been fully declared with harmonized tariff code 9706.00.00.60

Tokyo Customs does not seem to care, and the dealer in Tokyo that I am using is trying to talk some logic into them.

 

Others in NY have voiced to me that they hesitate to send anything to the NBTHK now, for various reasons. I politely listened, but didn't their concerns applied to fittings.

 

Anyone think it would be wise to get the NBTHK involved? If so, how would I do so and to whom would I write?

 

Sincerely in a bit of shock at Japan Customs,

Curran

[cabowen]

That happened to me once. I called customs and raised hell. Some gungho new employee took some initiative and tried to tell me I needed a license for tsuba....After talking with his supervisor, they showed up in the mail a few days later with an apology.

 

You are most likely going to need someone to intercede on your behalf and explain they are antique, not being sent for any commercial transaction, and are going to be returned to you after appraisal. Make sure they talk to a supervisor (bucho)....Likely to be a bit of a mess.....

 

I really doubt the NBTHK will do anything for you but it might be worth a try....

[Curran]

Chris,

 

Thank you. I'm working with a major Japanese dealer, and he is frustrated.

I will correspond with him again.

 

Unfortunately the deadline is this weekend.

Yen rate being what it is, the Japan customs being as screwy as they've gotten, and the NBTHK Hozon fittings papers being a bit questionable recently.... I wonder why I bother.

 

If I must have them papered, then waiting till the next time I attend an NTHK shinsa would be better.

Good luck with your upcoming shinsa.

[Derek]

Curran,

sorry to hear about this mess. I hate to see anyone have to go through it, especially with items they care so much about. I really hope it gets resolved quickly. I understand the issue with swords, but a hold up over fittings seems uncalled for.

 

-Derek

[cabowen]

Yes, customs in Japan, and the US as well, have really gotten ridiculous...

 

Personally, I wouldn't be bothering with NBTHK hozon shinsa. Hardly seems worth the money and potential hassle....

 

Best of luck....

[Curran]

With the Tokubetsu Kicho papers discount and sending several items together through a friendly agent, it wasn't going to be too much more $$$ than NTHK shinsa for fittings.

 

Plus, I hadn't sent anything to the NBTHK in many years.

It was almost just a weekend whim.

Now I regret it.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

Probably NTHK next time, if it should be papered.

[cabowen]

Keep us posted as to the turnout....Hope it works out for you-best of luck....

[David Flynn]

You wouldn't be prejudice would you Chris? :lol:

[Curran]

Of course he would be prejudiced there,

But at this point even I'm d*mn tired of the NBTHK papering.

 

After having been trading email with Japan Customs and various concerned Japanese individuals, even though they recognize the NBTHK papers and the items are antique, they are insisting upon tariff for the value above 200,000 yen.

 

They are also intending to hold the items past the shinsa deadline while they sort out the paperwork that was already filled out properly.

I have no guarantee the items weren't damaged during their handling (kodogu set is pristine shakudo), and they are being obstinate about just returning them to me.

 

I regret to say: caution to those sending your items to Japan. Even just fittings.

[cabowen]

You wouldn't be prejudice would you Chris? :lol:

 

 

If I was prejudiced, I would have said not to bother with the NBTHK at all. I simply said I wouldn't bother with Hozon shinsa for fittings and added that if you do the math and factor in the customs hassle, it hardly seems worth it to me. I will bet you when this is over it will not have made sense to Curran either...Perhaps it makes sense for you.....See the difference???

[Curran]

To be clear,

and in conjunction with Chris' statement...

 

Yes, why bother submitting fittings for papers if value is $1000 or less??

In the $1000 to $2000 range it is up for debate, and makes more sense on signed items.

The items I am submitting are each in the $2000 to $3000 range, and even then it was more whim than logic.

[cabowen]

What are the total costs of submitting, including shipping, insurance, and agent fees, telephone calls to Japan, customs tariffs, and the time and stress involved?

 

Are you going to be charges tariffs when the items are shipped back to the US? The last three times I had swords shipped back to me the US customs charged me a tariff. I eventually got a refund but there is no guarantee of that....

[Brian]

Sorry to hear about all of this Curran, I would be angry to say the least, and I don't let things lie easily.

By now I would have contacted anyone who might be able to assist..Gordon, Clive, Mishina sama, the NBTHK and anyone else who had contacts in Japan.

Have you considered contacting your local Japanese embassy? They must have someone who deals with cultural matters, and this falls firmly in that category. I would put in a formal complaint.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Have come to this somewhat late, but a friend had a similar experieince recently when trying to submit some menuki for appraisal. At the time we believed the problem lie with the shipping agent (Fedex in Japan) but based on Curran's experience it may well have been a Tokyo customs issue. Some 9 months later he received the menuki back but not before he had many long email debates and I dont doubt a few sleepness nights

Good luck Curran

[Pete Klein]

Any one seen the movie, 'Ikiru' of late...

[Peter Bleed]

This is a sad story, Curran. I admire you for "following the rules, doing the right thing. " I fear however, that the NBTHK SHOULD be there for us. What in the world does our membership mean? They are supposed to be there, educating the forces that be and "preserving" Japanese swords. I get extremely tired of being told that I am a vulgar barbarian if I do NOT pour money down the rat hole and wait for the wheels to turn.

Frankly, I would also say, Curran, that I trust your opinion on many matters.

Peter

[Curran]

Peter,

 

Thank you for your kind words. My work is very high stress work, so I try not to let hobby like this bother me. But it does feel quite the stone in my shoe.

There is a very sympathetic Customs agent trying to help, yet the problems seem to be more with Japan Post right now. There is a chance my items might not be returned, even though they have NBTHK paper with them documenting they are antiques.... not weapons.

 

Yes.... they are claiming the little shakudo menuki and kozuka (no blade) are weapons. Of course, it is explained to me money and several months of time might make it admitted so they can go to shinsa. Basically, I must pay about 50% of their worth.

___________________________________________________

 

I recently felt I wasted a bunch of time with an American visitor wanting to have us drool big wads of cash over his out of the closet sword. Now I feel I'm phfissing into the wind with the Japanese. Makes me tired. I'm not sure of the intent of Peter Klein's movie reference, but maybe I should watch it again and redirect energy towards building children's playgrounds (film reference)

 

Anyway... this pretty much cans any chance of me sending things to Juyo shinsa next year.

[Derek]

Why do I get the sad feeling that 10000 yen in the right pocket would suddenly resolve the problem?

 

 

-Derek

[Curran]

Actually, the amount is 8000 yen for one set of documents to start....

Then presumably more elsewhere.

[Henry Wilson]

Why do I get the sad feeling that 10000 yen in the right pocket would suddenly resolve the problem?

If you mean 10,000 yen as a bribe, I don't think it would make a button of difference. The next time you want to try and bribe a Japanese official, give me a call as I would love to see what happens.

 

I am very sorry to hear about Curran's problems. I have had many fitting imported and exported to / from Japan and I have never had any problems other that a piece or two being swallowed in customs for a few days. I had a very nice koshirae posted from Canada and on the Japan side it was opened and inspected. It was handled with care and re-packaged properly and forwarded to me promptly. I hope (and would assume) that Curran's pieces are being treated with same due respect. Fingers crossed for a happy end result.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be bothering with NBTHK hozon shinsa. Hardly seems worth the money and potential hassle....

I agree with Chris on this. Sending something for hozon shinsa would be to either:

1. Find out what you have.

2. To help with a resell.

 

If you need hozon papers to tell you what you have you are either not listening to people on boards like this and / or need to spend more time on finding out yourself what makes a piece worth of preservation.

 

To help with a resell, I think the time it takes and hassle outweighs any kind of mark-up you would hope to make. After all hozon...... "So what??"

 

Just some thoughts.

[NihontoEurope]

Hi all,

 

This in a very interesting thread.

 

I was actually thinking of posting a thread where the topic would be something like:

 

"A step to step process of submitting items to NBTHK"

 

What are the formal steps really. I want to submit a few blades for authentication papers and have a rough idea of the process, but now I'm really scared.

 

What I know so far is:

1. Take a lot of photos

2. Take even more photos.

3. Contact a dealer in Japan for reference

4. Arrival at Airport, go to police admin office to get import papers and give name of the dealer to officer. the office will call the dealer for authentication.

5. Dealer submits items to NBTHK.

6. Papers finalised.

7. Dealer applies for export papers and sends back the item to you. Obviously you have paid/bribed the dealer beforehand.

 

This is what I know. I have NOT tested this, but I really want opinions and fields tests : )

 

Comments?

 

/Martin

[cabowen]

What I think I would do in this case Curran is have the addressee go to the customs office where the items are being held with a copy of the JuToHo, ask to talk with a supervisor, explain that these are antiques and not classified as weapons and ask for their release. If they insist they are weapons, ask them to quote a statute from the JuToHo that requires them to be licensed. If they insist on a large duty, have the addressee refuse the item and have them sent back. It shouldn't be that big of deal.....

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Martin,

Bob Benson in Hawaii is an agent for getting swords and fittings to and from restoration and shinsa at the NBTHK. Easiest option for you is to send your stuff to Bob. There are others in Japan who can do this also.

Grey

[cabowen]

Sending swords is not difficult. Trying to carry them into Japan, without language skills, is.....

 

To send a sword into Japan, you need to send to an agent in Japan who can import the sword which amounts to taking care of the licensing as well as submitting the necessary paperwork and pictures for export. Ideally, this person will also submit the sword for shinsa.

 

 

Curran's situation is an anomaly and will be corrected eventually. You needed worry about this happening with swords.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that customs has really been looking for any way to collect duties. You need to declare a low value when you ship over to Japan (like less than $1000US) and likewise, when the item is shipped back. It also helps to include an invoice, in Japanese, that states that the item is being sent for appraisal only, that there is no commercial transactions taking place, and that the item will be returned to you after the appraisal.

[Stephen]

Marten this is dated 2007 im sure there is updates, Id contact Bob Benson for changes

 

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/nbthkshinsa.htm

[Derek]

If you mean 10,000 yen as a bribe, I don't think it would make a button of difference. The next time you want to try and bribe a Japanese official, give me a call as I would love to see what happens.

 

Sending something for hozon shinsa would be to either:

1. Find out what you have.

2. To help with a resell.

 

If you need hozon papers to tell you what you have you are either not listening to people on boards like this and / or need to spend more time on finding out yourself what makes a piece worth of preservation.

 

To help with a resell, I think the time it takes and hassle outweighs any kind of mark-up you would hope to make. After all hozon...... "So what??"

 

Just some thoughts.

 

 

Bribe? I was merely contemplating a nice conversation over a drink or two with a supervisor.

 

And I believe Curran stated he already had Tokubetsu Kicho, so assuming he was submitting for Tokubetsu Hozon which would probably be worth it.... Seeing Curran's previous contributions, I'm sure he is quite capable of determining what fittings are worthy of preservation.

 

 

-Derek

[NihontoEurope]

Why don't we all contact our "local" embassy in Japan and our "own" in the country we live in and ask for clarification/explanation to why this has happened and how to prevent this in the future?

 

Any followers?

 

If we do this we will most certainly show strength and our opinion heard. I hope this will not be a "lost" thread.

 

Also, the general idea of having customs is not only to pay tax. Another function is to actually declare incoming goods and the return of the same goods and NOT pay tax. Am I wrong?

 

/Martin

[raiden]

To Curran/All,

Just a quick note, we send items to Japan for the shinsa on a regular basis and have had no issues (knock on wood) even up to this date in which even a few weeks ago our lot was sent and arrived safely in Japan for this coming shinsa, and for the previous month for this years Juyo shinsa.We submit on the average 50-80 pieces of sword fittings a year not counting blades. We also use the USPS express mail service and find it quite reliable believe it or not. Was your package marked returned goods and did you use USPS?

Mike Yamasaki

http://www.tetsugendo.com

[Curran]

Mike,

 

USPS: Yes

Express Mail: Yes

Returned Goods: Yes

 

Only mistake I made was insuring and declaring for $5000.

I filled out the long customs form with Japanese Antiques.... Harmonized Tariff Code 9706.00.00.60

 

I've been through this with Darcy, Benson, Christies, and other places enough that I know what I am doing. If anything, I was particularly honest this time with a note on the customs form saying "To NBTHK Museum and then to be returned". Practically the cleanest package I ever sent, so naturally I get what Chris calls the anomoly.

 

It still is an anomoly, and Chris is right in that probably it will need be refused and returned to me.

Others have been kind enough to say my kantei skills don't suck.... but for these pieces (2 with old green papers), it didn't require much effort:

(1) Kaga Goto Set (Each with 3 Maeda mon on them)

(2) 11cm O-Katchushi - ~Ubu

(3) A very nice "Miyamoto Musashi Namako" Hayashi with goldwork

 

So if you see any of these floating in Japan for sale... please let me know.

 

Curran

[Derek]

Ouch, I hope that wasn't the Hayashi tsuba that you shared a picture of.... it was amazing.

 

-Derek