k morita Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 Hi, I got a catalog of the The 1st Gunto exhibition in December, 1943. I noticed that Mr.Emura had sent his swords to this Gunto exhibition from Kochi prefecture(Doshu), not Okayama prefecture(Bishu). Therefore, I would like to guess as following. Before around 1940: He was in Takamatsu city in Kagawa prefecture(in Shikoku). Around 1940: He was in Okayama prefecture (Bishu-mei).(The head of the Okayama prison). Around 1943: He was in Kochi prefectire (Doshu-mei). Probably, there was much transfer, since he was the head of the prison. Therefore,I guesse Emura swords of Doshu-mei(Dr.Stein's site on F-b Oshigata(Mei:Doshu Chounsai Emura),and Slough's oshigata P28, B1) were mede around 1943-. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/emura.htm Quote
cabowen Posted September 17, 2011 Report Posted September 17, 2011 What else is in the catalog? Is it just a list of the blades entered or are there pictures, oshigata, etc.? Quote
cabowen Posted September 18, 2011 Report Posted September 18, 2011 Looking through the results for the 2nd Army Exhibition in 1944 I do not see Emura listed at all..... Quote
David Flynn Posted September 18, 2011 Report Posted September 18, 2011 According to Morita San, it was the Gunto exhibition of 1943. Quote
cabowen Posted September 18, 2011 Report Posted September 18, 2011 According to Morita San, it was the Gunto exhibition of 1943. Yeah, I caught that. There were only two Army exhibitions and I was just noting the fact that he did not participate in the second one, thus we can not know if he stayed in Kochi ken or moved again... Quote
Rich S Posted September 18, 2011 Report Posted September 18, 2011 Morita san - May I have your permission to use the info on Emura you found on my website about him? With credit given of course. Is Toshu and Doshu the same reading? Thanks, very interesting. Quote
Tom Clancy Posted September 18, 2011 Report Posted September 18, 2011 A bit off topic but do any members know if this smith produced blades with Yakidashi as a regular style. This might be of some assistance to finding out when and where he was producing blades. Tom. Quote
Rich S Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 A bit off topic but do any members know if this smith produced blades with Yakidashi as a regular style. This might be of some assistance to finding out when and where he was producing blades. Tom - I've owned several Emura swords and seen many more. I don't recall any with pronounced yakidashi. That doesn't mean Emura didn't make any, just that I don't recall them and have killed off a few too many brain cells. Rich S Quote
cabowen Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 A bit off topic but do any members know if this smith produced blades with Yakidashi as a regular style. This might be of some assistance to finding out when and where he was producing blades. Tom. I have seen and handled more than I can remember but do not recall seeing yaki-dashi on an Emura blade....not sure how a yaki-dashi can help place a location and time of manufacture, in any case.... Quote
george trotter Posted September 22, 2011 Report Posted September 22, 2011 Here is some information on Emura from the "Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan" of 1942 page 304/17. This supports Morita san finding for his movements up to 1942. The section of swordsmiths listed for Okayama ken, Hiroshima ken, Yamaguchi Ken, Tottori Ken, Shimane ken lists a lot of tosho and their addresses and the group/workshop they belong to. Emura is listed as being at the Okayama Prison here, but he is named as one of four tosho connected to the NIHONTO TANREN KENKYUSHO, established SHO 10, 8th month (not sure, but this may be the NIHONTO KENKYUKAI, a TOKEN KANTEIGYO under the management of Yoshida Mitsushige, of Okayama city, Hon machi described on page 304/14). I presume the Nihonto Tanren Kenkyusho was the central collection point who inspected, then mounted and sold the output of these smiths. So it seems clear that Emura (at least at this time) was producing as part of an organised association of at least four tosho: R-L Noma Masamichi, Tominaga Ryuu?, Nakata Akinori, Emura Chounsai. Hope this helps a bit. Regards, Quote
k morita Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Posted September 22, 2011 Hi George san, I also have a original book of "Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan". You have misunderstanding in the interpretation of the name list on "Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan". 1: The swordsmith of NIHONTO TANREN KENKYUSHO related only one sword smith(Noma Masamichi), and other 3 swordsmiths are not related to NIHONTO TANREN KENKYUSHO. 2: NIHONTO TANREN KENKYUSHO is unrelated to NIHONTO KENKYUKAI. NIHONTO TANREN KENKYUSHO is a Noma Masamichi's factory(workshop,studio) of making swords. NIHONTO KENKYUKAI is judgment business of swords. Quote
george trotter Posted September 22, 2011 Report Posted September 22, 2011 Hi Kiyoshi san, Thanks for the correction...I thought they were all four together because they have "onaji" written above each name...I thought this means that all 4 are in the same organisation. Sorry for that. It must mean the 3 swordsmiths are "independent". Anyway, this entry shows that Emura was listed as a swordsmith at Okayama Prison in 1942. Regards, George. Quote
cabowen Posted September 22, 2011 Report Posted September 22, 2011 You have to look in the same row to see what is the same...If the organization was the same, it would say 同 in the same row. 同 is in the row below.... Quote
george trotter Posted September 22, 2011 Report Posted September 22, 2011 I had another look at the beginning of the onaji row and it does indeed say "Tosho"...so they are all tosho in that row...duuhhh! . Thanks Chris and Kiyoshi san. Sorry to mess it up. Regards, Quote
Brian Posted September 22, 2011 Report Posted September 22, 2011 I think it is great that we are still pursuing new info on these WW2 smiths here. I am not sure if there is active research being done on them in Japan...but obviously with the resources and people with an interest like George, Morita san, Chris etc...it can only bode well for the continued study of Gendaito. Brian Quote
Kam Posted September 22, 2011 Report Posted September 22, 2011 Hi As i have had a few people contact me in regards to my pink slipped Emura (sorry Dave it just never ends) I have been informed of some interesting findings. I can not validate most of these as they are other peoples experiences but I will relate them anyway. One gentlemen informed me that back in the mid 80's he bought an Emura with saka choji and a large section of mune yaki, another pointed out that he has owned 2 Emura 1 of which was almost identical to mine in all aspects except that the Hamon went from suguha to choji. I wonder how much his style changed and now with a lot of gimae gendaito bouncing around it is becoming a lot harder to have these other elements officially accepted. Kam Quote
cabowen Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Let's be clear here- Emura ran a prison workshop with numerous helpers. The huge variation in both the work style, workmanship, and mei styles can only mean one thing: there were many people making and signing these blades. This is not uncommon in the history of sword making but is actually quite common in the shops of WWII. It is true for famous smiths that attracted many students, like Gassan Sadakatsu and Kasama Shigetsugu, as well as Seki factories and smiths with a "captive" workforce like Emura. This makes the identification of an Emura blade, which falls within the known body of work, like yours, as a fake, very unlikely. Furthermore, it is extremely unlikely that any shinsa team has seen enough Emura blades, made records, and actually studied in depth the workstyle of this smith, such that they are in the position to make this exceeding difficult call. Now, if the blade was completely different from anything seen before with his signature, say with a completely different mei from any seen and a sanbonsugi hamon, maybe one would raise a question, but yours is not so far from the norm as to raise any flags in my opinion. Now, I have only seen about 100 of these over the last 35 years- maybe the shinsa team has seen more.... Then we have the likelihood of someone actually faking an Emura blade....Yours certainly looks to be from the correct period....While it is possible, given the fake Yasukuni blades around, with Emura blades selling for half to a third of Yasukuni blades, I can't see the economic rational just yet. I would not worry about the authenticity of this sword. Submit it to a different shinsa and I think you will see it pass.... Quote
David Flynn Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 One of the reasons this sword was knocked back, was the Yasurimei. This particular sword of Kams' Yasurimei, ended in the shape of a Diamond, just below the habaki. In all the Emura blades and oshigata I've seen, this trait has never been present. I'm not saying, there never has been, just the ones I've seen. Also the hada in this sword, appeared Muji. Quote
Kam Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Hey Dave I was informed by the guy that I had mentioned had an emura like mine except his suguha turned into choji that his also had kesho yasurime. And to top it off there is an emura on evilbay that also has kesho yasurime. As for muji hada I think the chilli in the szechuan we had must have stung your eyes as well, take a look at attached pic. . . there is a lot of hataraki you just need the right light to see it. . . . Kam Quote
David Flynn Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Kam, my apologies about the hada, must have been the lights in the showroom. Quote
Kam Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Mate no need to appologies, I was hoping for a witty remark. I enjoyed stirring you up at the Shinsa maybe I thought I could get a bite. But your mushin has thwarted my attempts :? . . . I see your zen powers are to much for me Kam Quote
Brian Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Would they paper it if they believed it to be made by one of his students? My point is...an Emura that is pink slipped..does it mean it is an outright fake, or might they have merely judged it to not be by the man himself, but by one of his students and signed by him? Brian Quote
cabowen Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Would they paper it if they believed it to be made by one of his students?My point is...an Emura that is pink slipped..does it mean it is an outright fake, or might they have merely judged it to not be by the man himself, but by one of his students and signed by him? Brian If it was made by a student and signed by Emura it would be considered daisaku and should be papered. I have not seen the rejection sheet so I do not know why they failed it but it sounds like they said it was gimei, meaning it came from outside the Emura workshop and had a spurious Emura mei added. I have seen Emura with kesho yasuri as well.... One wonders what reference materials the shinsa team had with them....I can't think of one standard Japanese reference that contains an Emura oshigata, never mind a broad selection of them.... Quote
David Flynn Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 I just can't help feeling that NTHK believed there was something seriously wrong with this sword to call it Gimei. Admittedly, there is some faith involved here. Quote
Tom Clancy Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Chris Quoted: I have seen and handled more than I can remember but do not recall seeing yaki-dashi on an Emura blade.... Regards Tom. Quote
cabowen Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 One would hope so but looking at the photos, there certainly is nothing that stands out in my mind. Far more likely, knowing what I know about shinsa teams, they simply don't have much experience with these type of blades, have little to no references, and have spent little to no time educating themselves on the work of any but the top WW2 era smiths. The blades of the late Meiji to the those made at the end of war, other than a handful of the top smiths, are a major blind spot. I saw this time and again, talking to members of various shinsa teams. I can give all sorts of examples but there is no need to embarrass anyone here. People that submit WWII era blades simply need to be prepared for this type of thing. It is one reason why, in my opinion, it is a waste of time. Now that Yasukuni and others have been faked, the best defense is to educate yourself. You can not rely on a shinsa team at present to be up to speed on this. Maybe in the future, if these blades become more collected in the mainstream, teams will gain the experience and be more reliable. Until then, it is a crap shoot in many cases. Quote
cabowen Posted September 23, 2011 Report Posted September 23, 2011 Chris Quoted: I have seen and handled more than I can remember but do not recall seeing yaki-dashi on an Emura blade.... Said I could not recall, not that I hadn't seen it.....Must be gimei :lol: All is possible with Emura....Anyone have one done in sanbonsugi? Quote
Kam Posted September 24, 2011 Report Posted September 24, 2011 I dont have one with Sanbonsugi. . . although I wouldn't be to quick to dismiss it :? Anyway just got an email back from aoiart and this is his reply - "The Emura is 100% genuine signature. Kind regards. Kazushige Tsuruta." Kam Quote
cabowen Posted September 24, 2011 Report Posted September 24, 2011 He has sold more than a few of these so he should have the experience to give an informed opinion. Like I said, I wouldn't be concerned about it..... Quote
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