please help with selling a Koto blade

[renaissance guy]

I have a Koto sword i was told, and need some help in selling it.

let me start by saying I know little about all the terms used in this description process. I am very hesitant to sell it on eBay or to send it off for an offer. I have heard all the horror stories of never getting your sword back. So after much looking on line i thought a group of knowledgeable sword buyers might be the best place to go. Please forgive me if this is in poor form and moderators please move this post to the right location if this is not it.

 

I bought this sword years ago from a gentleman i became friends with and after many various long conversations found out he had this sword. he and his brother had each gotten one of there grandfathers swords from there father. his brother lived closer so he got to pick the one he wanted first leaving this one to him. his brother picked the fancy sword with sheath and still has it hanging on his wall he says. leaving this sword, in just a plain wood sheath, lemon wood he was told, and wrapped in what looks like butcher paper. not to impressive he thought so he has had it in his closet for years. I though i would get it and have it put in a shadow box and mount it on the wall but just never got around to it, so here i am

 

He told me his grandfather received the swords as a gift when he retired in the early teens. He was an (or the) assistant to the Minister of the interior of Japan.

I have had several buyers look at it over the years and they have told me the maker and inscriptions

 

one side says Bi Shu Osa Fune Nori Mitsu

and the other O ei San Nen Hadi Getsu Nichi

 

 

my wife will be taking some pictures and will post them up.

and i will get some measurements as well

is there anything i should do or not do in taking the pictures and what should they be of?

 

i was told this was a 20,000.00 sword but i have no idea if the market has gone up or down?

 

so i appreciate any and all advice or help with this

again very sorry if this is not the right way to handle this

 

thanks and God bless

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well, you've certainly found the right place to get advice, but we'd like to know who you are, where you are, & exactly what it is you want to sell. So please make up a signature that tells us the first two.

 

A good link for Nihonto photography is http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/swordphotography.htm. Once you have some decent photos posted (please check out the link showing how to use Imageshack.com to post your photos), there are a lot of very smart & experienced people here who are willing to provide advice.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Ken

[Curran]

Right place to get honest advice.

The moderator will probably move this to one of the other sections, since the sword really isn't for sale yet.

 

Most likely the saya is shirasaya and is magnolia wood.

An Oei period Bizen Norimitsu without papers is unlikely to be worth $10,000 or more unless the signature is easily recognizable as genuine and the sword is in excellent condition.

 

As per the rules, use your proper first name and last initial would be considerate since this is a large forum with a few name repeats.

Depending upon your location, it also might be best if we direct you to a local authority or sword group as well.

[Jean]

Right Curran, my friend

[renaissance guy]

Thanks guys

Just updated some more info on my profile.

Taking some pics of the sword to post now, $10,000 sounds a little low but I guess i am not really in the know and that's why i am here...

[sanjuro]

[renaissance guy]

[Jean]

I don't know about the mei being gimei or not but the hada is very close to Oei Bizen

[leo]

According to the date 1396 and the signature, it could be Norimitsu III. This guy is mentioned in the books, but I could not find an 3rd gen. oshigata to compare the kanji. I could only find oshigata of 1st gen. and then from 4th gen. upward.

 

Does anybody has a scan of 3rd gen.?

 

Curtis, I hope you have a recent NBTHK paper going with this blade or even the 10.000,- will remain a dream. If not, why not submit it?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(50)%20No.607.htm

[renaissance guy]

thanks for looking guys,

 

so what would my next step be?

tell me more about getting these papers? how much will it cost and would it be worth it? will it bring the value up?

what do the papers do or mean?

 

any one have any ideas what it might be worth just from looking at the pics as it sits now?

 

boy i ask alot of questions....thanks

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Curtis,

You have options for papers. There are 2 different NTHK shinsas (paper issuing occasions) occurring in the States in the near future: one group in Minneapolis in October and the other group in Tampa in February. You could also send the sword to Japan for NTHK or NBTHK shinsa.

Shinsa in the States might cost ca. $300 (you live in the States, right?) and if the sword gets a paper it might add more than that amount to the value, but probably not a lot more. Papers issued in Japan carry more weight and do a better job of increasing value but they will cost you a bunch more: close to $1K what with shipping, registration, broker fee, and the rest. Chances are they won't add that much value to the blade.

When I say the papers don't add much value I'm not dissing the shinsas or the idea of getting papers. In your case the sword probably is exactly what it purports to be, Oei Bizen Norimitsu, and the paper doesn't make a great deal of difference.

What is the sword worth as is? Can you tell us the cutting edge length (nagasa)? Measure from the tip to the notch at the back of the blade in a straight line.

Grey

[renaissance guy]

ok, it looks to be dead on 25" does that help?

 

so what do the papers do or tell you about the sword? kinda like having a Rembrandt authenticated? they look at the brush strokes and paper and signature and tell it all matches to what he would have done??

[Brian]

Grey,

I beg to differ. I think papers on a high end sword make a huge difference to the value. Maybe not if you know for sure what you have, but to a potential buyer, they are not going to spend $20K for a sword that might be what it claims to be. I think on higher end stuff, when selling, the papers might be the difference betwen $10K and $20K. We always say, buy the work, not the signature, but when you are dropping tens of thousands, then most people aside from from the top level of collectors will want to know for sure what they are buying.

 

As for the origami Curtis, yep..that's pretty much exactly what they are.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I've big doubts about the validity of that signature because works by Norimitsu and dated Oei are extremely rare or even non-existent.

[Grey Doffin]

Brian,

Why would a 25" katana by a Norimitsu, working in Oei, mounted in shira-saya, and a smith not important enough to be included in any reference be worth anywhere near 10 or 20K$? To me this looks like $2,500 to $3,000 without a paper and $3,000 to $3,500 with a paper. Maybe $4,000 with Hozon or $5,000 with a Tokubetsu Hozon paper form the NBTHK but then you have to spend $1,000 or more to get the paper (with no guarantee that you'll get it).

Maybe I'm wrong here; maybe the sword is worth what Curtis has been told. What do others think?

Grey

[Brian]

Grey,

I was speaking more in general about swords, and not particularly this one. Meaning papers generally do increase value a lot more than without. Whether or not that is the way it should be...is a long debate for another topic. But in general a papered blade will fetch far more. As for this case, it is in nice polish, and looks like a decent blade. I am not going to value it though, as values here and in the US and in the UK vary greatly. With papers...I agree no-where near $20K. Without papers...far, far less than with.

 

Brian

[Curran]

I figured it would be best to let others speak up on this one for the benefit of the owner. Though I don't collect swords anymore (never say never), Bizen and especially Oei Bizen is my primary interest so I have a very good idea in this area. Hearing from people like Brian and Grey should be about as honest as it gets.

 

The good is that his sword is -surprisingly- in relatively clean polish. Shirasaya looks well preserved with one of those little ivory or bone mekugi rings. Habaki is rather mediocre, and we know prices on getting those replaced with well made current gold ones have climbed more dramatically than gold. Another negative is that is is on the short end, especially for Bizen around the period where it is dated.

 

The fact that it is relatively in polish is the major caveat. I must remain suspicious about the back story, because polish is as it is and there appear (to my eyes) some small repairs that I think look relatively modern as in the last 30 to 40 years or so.

 

I'll break out all the big old Bizen books and give it a once over this weekend. I'm sure some others can yes/no the signature faster than I can, as the owner has provided a very clear photo.

 

As to $$$: well, some people care for Norimitsu more than I can understand. However, as a second stringer in the Bizen pantheon, the values on his swords have really fallen off since the 2008 financial crash sort of dried up the art (art sword) world in many ways. Soethebys and Christies have basically given up on Nihonto, as so much doesn't sell anymore. I think Grey's estimates are accurate, though perhaps a bit conservative. He has purchased and sold many many more swords than I have or ever will. A dealer would probably offer the owner a -20% to -50% of that amount and then mark it up. If the owner really wants to sell it.... those prices are probably fairly liquid.

 

I highly recommend the owner have this one inspected by a reputable group (either club or shinsa). NBTHK papers add the most value, but are insanely expensive now with import/export and the yen/USD rate being toe cheese. If Yoshikawa Elder were still alive, I'd say definitely take it to him at the Tampa shinsa.

However, this should be an easy one for them to Confirm or Reject. Problem is there are a lot of gimei Norimitsu out there, as (being a second stringer not as readily in the average reference book) he was a good target for forgery.

 

Ko-Curran

[leo]

Grey, I have to back Brian in this.

From my experience, especially here in Europe, the price difference between a unpapered gimei blade and one with NBTHK papers, signed (in this case even dated) by a rare artist, is huge!! Even if the quality of workmanship is outrageous, nobody will take the risk of spending a larger amount of money on an unpapered and possibly gimei blade.

So we are talking about 5.000,- max. for the unpapered variety.

A signed and dated Norimitsu II or III of this quality, provided the polish is very good, would probably fetch 15 to 20.000,-!

 

But as Jacques pointed out, the chance of it getting a paper is very slim! I checked my pretty big library and could not find a single oshigata of a Norimitsu working around this date!

Still, attending a stateside Shinsa would be worth the money!

[Grey Doffin]

Martin,

A papered, signed and dated, 25" katana by Oei Bizen Norimitsu will bring $15 to 20K? I need your customers.

Again, I'm talking about this one blade here, not swords and papers in general. I still think that papers issued in the US won't make a big difference and that papers issued in Japan won't make enough difference to offset the cost of obtaining them.

Grey

[Curran]

I absolutely must agree with Grey. I re-read up on the Norimitsu line last night and while certain things about this sword ARE correct for the line, they really were second fiddle to Oei-Bizen.

Work (stock & options markets) has gotten a bit hectic at the moment with the current spazZ Panic. Really.... the HFT machines of Goldman and some of the uber hedge funds just so manipulate the common trader-investor now.

 

 

I'll look at the owner's signature and make a call on it this weekend, if he's still following this thread.

Should be easy enough with the books I have, unless this particular gen is very undocumented.

 

I am surprised the sword is still in polish as well as it has been. Much of the value is simply in that.

[runagmc]

There's an Osafune Norimitsu wakizashi on this page from Kansho period about 60 years after yours. It's nicer than yours w/ tokubetsu hozon papers and listed for 1,800,000 yen. Like everything on this site, it's over priced in my opinion.

 

Here's the link: click on the word swords for the pics...

 

http://www.choshuya.co.jp/1/0806/index.htm

[leo]

Thanks for the link, Adam, supports my opinion on the value!

Apart from the nakago, I find this sword not so attractive plus its only a wakizashi and its a later gen.

 

I wonder how much Choshuya would ask for the a.m. katana if it had TH papers, 3 maybe 4 Million?

[Curran]

Martin: Then it sounds like you would like to buy this man's sword? Make him an offer.

 

Ginza Choshuya is definitely full priced.

It is like the bent wood chair I am currently sitting on: A mile away in ever trendy SOHO they wanted $758 for it. I purchased it for $215 here in the Financial District.

 

Martin.... really, make this guy an offer of $10,000 if you feel it is worth much more than $10,000. Simplify his life and make yourself a wad of cash in the long run.

Otherwise, I think you're tinkling on his head and telling him that it is raining.

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

The sword is nice in relatively good polish. No visible flaws I saw in the photos.

I broke out the Osafune Books: No Match There

The Bizen Taikan (BIG book of Bizen): Reference mei are many, but not of best quality. No clear match.

Some of the other Bizen Books picked up over the years: Didn't find any clean matches.

 

The sword looks correct for Osafune Bizen type work, and Nagayama notes that starting in Oei period this side group's work were more uchigatana length (ie. hence why 25 inches may be correct for this guy). So the jury remains out on this one. It would be a good sword for NBTHK Hozon shinsa. I am not sure how much value or validity a shinsa outside of Japan homebase would provide, as this requires more specialized references than any shinsa team would logically travel with.

 

I really think the owner should get it looked at by a competent sword group such as the San Fran or the New York one. Either that or just submit it to shinsa.

 

Curran

[renaissance guy]

still hear, and enjoying all the comments so far.

i am not likely to send it to Japan and wait for up to a year or more.

would be kinda fun tho.

i have had several guys over the years look at it guys traveling thru that put adds in the paper. and had a guy in Portland look at it and write down the info from the blade, Steve Strauch. told him i did not want to sell it but wanted to know what it was said and how old it was. He did say "Now this is a very nice little blade" when he was looking at it. maybe i should give him a call again...nice guy.

[cabowen]

i am not likely to send it to Japan and wait for up to a year or more.

would be kinda fun tho..

 

We are hosting a team of experts from Japan on Oct. 7-9 to conduct sword appraisals (shinsa) in Minneapolis. We are also offering a submission service for those that can't attend. You would know in a weekend.....See the link below my signature for more details and email me if you are interested.

[renaissance guy]

hmmmm , interesting.

 

but some on here are saying that guys from here might not know what it is and it might be a waist of time and $$$. would i be shooting myself in the foot by having some guys look at it and not know for sure what it is , so they decide to not paper it and that ends up hurting the value ALOT!!?

[cabowen]

The team is 5 Japanese sword experts from the oldest sword appraisal organization in Japan. If they don't know what it is, it is doubtful no one will.......Your next best option is to send to Japan to another organization.....That will indeed take 5-6 months and cost you roughly 3 times the money....If you are seriously interested in finding out just what you have, this is your chance....If they decide not to paper it, it means it is fake, damaged, or of such poor quality that it is not worthy of papers. Shouldn't the value decrease in such instances?

[Derek]

I think this is going nowhere. You are asking for free advice from people based on photos. If you are serious about finding the ID and potential value of a nihonto, shinsa is definately the way to go. Worst case, you are out $100, but will have a definate answer on identity. If you get an answer you don't like, you can try another organization later.

 

 

Derek

[Ken-Hawaii]

Curtis, you have received much good advice from many forum members with many years of experience. They have suggested sending your blade to shinsa, & you are saying that you want to call some guy who has said "Now this is a very nice little blade"...?

 

You seem to want to hear only what you want to hear, & are frankly wasting this forum's bandwidth. If you want professional feedback on your blade, then send it to shinsa!

 

Ken