Tōgō Heihachirō's sword katana-New member + URGENT HELP!!!

[Stuart R]

Hi all,

 

I am a new member to the forums and have been recommended by many highly knowledgable collectors including Steve C.

 

 

I just purchased Tōgō Heihachirō's sword (the famous Admiral) off a collector who was selling his collection, it also came with his bronze statue, a copy of the real large on in Japan. This was a huge gamble for me since I am not quite knowledgeable on Japanese swords here are the pictures- I don't know if he owned the sword for ceremonial purposes or what, nor do I know if it belongs to his earlier family. It also comes with a statue of Togo and the sword blade is signed. If anyone could help me with this I could be very much appreciative. If anyone could read the markings that would be great too,there is a small marking (see pics) on the scabbard which I am not sure of the meaning. . The sword was purchased in Las Vegas at a very expensive boutique.

 

info: : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8D...eihachir%C5%8D

 

Thanks, I hope I didn't screw up!

 

all pics at:

http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/...word%20Katana/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cabowen]

What documentation do you have to indicate this sword once belonged to Togo?

[runagmc]

Blade has a katana mei (signature) that looks like Kanemitsu to me. Everything looks to be real and the mounts, at least, look to be high quality. This is my favorite style of tachi koshirea (mounts).

 

Can't tell as much about the blade, but it is a real Nihonto. Looks pretty old. (I could be wrong, I didn't look at the photobucket pics)

 

I don't know what you paid but it looks like a good purchase for someone new to the subject. Mabey someone else will be able to give you more info.

[drbvac]

I cant get the links to open ! either one - The first kanji in the mei is Kane is it not sure of second

[Mark]

mei looks like Kanemoto to me.

[Ken-Hawaii]

The reason the links won't open is because they were copied without using the mouse to grab the actual long URL, so all he got was ... instead of the underlying info.

 

And Stuart, please sign your messages per Brian's rules. Welcome to the forum.

 

Ken

[runagmc]

Yes, kanemoto looks right. My mistake

[Stuart R]

I paid $4000 for the sword and statue. The original documentation was lost when the owners accidentally sold it with a suit of Samurai display armor, which is quite a shame as they had the original purchase documents AND an appraisal for well over $40k.

 

 

I know the sword may be very hard to trace back to Togo, all I have is the statue and the hope that the signature could be linked to him somehow. I was wondering if what I paid was reasonable for this sort of sword and if anyone could suggest it being real, and what period it is from?

 

Many thanks for all the help!

 

 

 

--------------------

Stuart Russell

[cabowen]

Without any documentation I think you are, to put it bluntly, SOL.....

 

It is a decent koshirae and the blade has potential. I would think the price you paid is reasonable for what you received.

[Jean]

I'll say Kane Moto

[Stephen]

hey all I sent Stu here to ask for help, Koichi san helped with the kanji on the saya,,,which dont fit in my mind...

Jean...I know your a Mino Kanemoto fan, whats your take on the Mei...shoshin? First Gen? the suguha would fit that Yes?

[Jean]

Stephen,

 

The moto kanji does not fit (too close from "mitsu" - but for the ataraki)

 

Very Kodai or Gimei

 

Edit to add, perhaps another smith who has noting to do to this great lineage

[drbvac]

Agreed - however if he can prove the provenance I think it would be the price for a military collector

[Stuart R]

Hi folks,

 

I am grateful for all the info received but am quite confused, as Stephen said you never can learn enough from swords, and I just started!

 

I take it there is some general confusion on the blade, so perhaps it isn't a Kanemoto but a different signature from a different period? All help is appreciated!

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------

Stuart Russell

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

According the NBTHK sword journal, admiral Togo Heihachiro owned a katana signed Yoshifusa (Juyo bunkasai) This sword is presently in the Togo shrine; it was worn by Togo all of the time on the warship Mikasa’s bridge.

[Derek]

Admiral Togo Heihachiro with sword in hand.

[Derek]

A different close-up of sword at his side. Saya looks reasonably correct, not sure about tsuba.

 

 

Derek

[runagmc]

It looks to me from the limited pictures and info that you got a fair deal even if it didn't belong to the Admiral and even if the blade is gimei (gimei means bearing a false mei or signature).

 

If you decide you don't want it, I think you would be able to sell it for as much as you paid. Thats assuming the blade has no 'fatal flaws'. It could even be worth more. It's just impossible to say for sure from pictures.

 

BTW__ the mei (signature) does look like KANEMOTO. Jean was just pointing out that it doesn't look like a signature from one of the smiths of the Kanemoto lineage in Mino province that started around the late 1400's. He also pointed out that it could be either a different smith who signed Kanemoto or a false signature.

 

Be aware that you should take everything you've been told on here as our opinions and not the absolute facts.

[Derek]

IMHO, I would be quite upset to buy the personal sword of one of the most famous admirals in Japanese history, only to find in 5 minutes of internet research that it is unlikely.

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/translation/648.htm

 

 

Derek

[Stuart R]

Hi guys,

 

So the general idea is that it is not his sword, nor is signed by a real Kanemoto, but rather a unrelated sword that is a early reproduction of the Kanemoto symbol. So I take it the $4000 was not a great investment? I was under the impression it would be worth double that as a good, stand alone sword without provenance. Again, thank you for the information, I have the option to return it as well. I was really hoping it would be the real thing, I guess he didn't have several swords?

 

 

Thanks again!

[Brian]

While I doubt the authenticity of the story and provenance.....knowing what sword Admiral Togo carried frequently really doesn't rule out the fact that he may have owned many other swords. A friend of mine owns Saddam Hussein's medal group. So do many other collectors. Turns out he had a few sets, that were stored at different locations. Not saying this was his, just that knowing of one he owned doesn't disprove others.

That said, unless you have concrete evidence and research, it has to be treated as any other sword without provenance. Fittings are interesting through....custom made in WW2 maybe? More pics?

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Pictures are here

 

http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd4 ... %20Katana/

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Stuart,

Where do you live? I think you need to have this looked at in hand by someone who knows Nihonto.

From what I can see on photo bucket, there appears to be a forging flaw about midway down the blade, and I'm not terribly impressed by the quality of the mounts. If what you have is a flawed, fake signature blade in flashy but mediocre mounts, I think $4K was too much. If that isn't a flaw and the mounts are better in person than what I see online, $4K might be OK.

Grey

[Jean]

I cannot copy the link but go to Aoi-Art website, wakizashi section, they have a Kanemoto, probably 3rd generation, look at the mei. The kanji "moto" in this sword is absolutely wrong.

[Stuart R]

I live in Canada- the sword was purchased in Las Vegas at the "Ville Riel" 2-3 years ago, apparently it cost them $40,000 and the statue cost an additional $5000. I tried calling the boutique up but the number always came up busy, perhaps it was disconnected or they closed down (their site is still up though).

 

I still have the opportunity to not keep the sword which might be a good idea.

 

From what people have told me here, it is either a good repro, a overpriced repro or a bad overpriced repro of a Kanemoto- would anyone have an estimate of value for a sword like this as a early repro not associated with Togo?

 

 

Thanks again!

[David Flynn]

First thing that should ring alarm bells. Paid $40,000 but will sell for $4,000.

[Stuart R]

Hi David,

 

....They needed the money, happens all the time and I see expensive things go for nothing, though I wasn't completely UN- suspicious myself, nor do I blame anyone else for thinking it was a bit fishy. Then again, everything in Vegas is so overpriced so I'm not really surprised they over paid for it too.

 

So yeah, its a bummer sword I take it

[Ronin Akuma]

 

 

More info here:

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/giftspresentations.htm

[runagmc]

Just to be clear Stuart, the blade IS a traditionally made Japanese sword. I don't think looking at it as a repro is really the right idea. The quality of everything and validity of the signature are questionable. I see some good signs and some bad signs from the pics. Like Grey said your best bet is to find somebody to view the sword in person. If you can't do that and you don't feel comfortable taking the risk mabey you should return it. At the end of the day it's your decision. Sorry we couldn't give you a more definitive answer.

[Stuart R]

Hi guys,

 

Sword was returned! I figured it would be better to save the money instead of taking a huge risk on something experts were not sure on. The owners seemed..... upset that I was not happy with it, nor that other people had checked it out and found flaws.

 

Thanks for everything, I really couldn't have learned as much without everyones help on here- kudos!