Opinions on age

[cabowen]

Could I ask you which organization hosted that shinsa, Mr Bowen?

 

 

Derek

 

Maybe I best simply say it was not the NTHK-NPO which is coming to Minneapolis this October....I know the owner is following this thread now...if he wishes to comment further, perhaps he will. In any case, it shouldn't be too hard to connect the dots, mate.....

[drbvac]

Just for interests sake - can one take the same sword to another shinsa team for a "second opinion"? I wonder if one could -- what would be the chance that it would be the same - especially in a case such as this with some question as to the accuracy of the decision :?

[Derek]

In any case, it shouldn't be too hard to connect the dots, mate.....

 

Well played, sir.

 

I guess paperwork can be mistakenly switched. Or perhaps the sword is much different in hand. I believe there is "wiggle room" for the attribution of most mumei blades. Very interesting though. Either way, thank you for this informative thread.

 

 

Derek

[cabowen]

Just for interests sake - can one take the same sword to another shinsa team for a "second opinion"? I wonder if one could -- what would be the chance that it would be the same - especially in a case such as this with some question as to the accuracy of the decision :?

 

Surely one could, and in this case, I would highly recommend it. As mentioned above, perhaps the sword is much different in hand, but I would doubt strongly you will get the same "WWII, Tokyo, oil quenched" call...As I have told the owner, don't put too much into this opinion, try again.

[steve oakley]

As this is my item, I have waited and watched the comments. Yes I am surprised at the results at Shinsa. I was thinking that it would have been failed at Shinsa for being too tired or unable to attribute it to the school or period. Not that they believed it was WW2 oil quenched.

 

As a novice I would have said it was a few hundreds years old, not the age of my father.

 

I have attached some more photos. Yes it did get a touch up polish but in hindsight maybe it should have been left as it was prior to Shinsa.

 

The polish did remove some unsightly rust marks and small cracks though. In regard to the photo that shows the rough hada, this is this the only area on the blade that this appears and there is no roughness on the respective opposite side. So if it had been bent then straightened i would have thought that the roughness would also be on the opposite side.

 

Unfortunately, i have missed the boat on the NTHK-NPO Shinsa coming up, but yes i will submit again and see what the result is. I will inform you of those results in good time.

 

Thankyou for your opinions.

Steve

[pcfarrar]

Did you submit any other swords at the shinsa how did they go?

 

Yoshikawa NTHK made some similar "showato" calls at the UK shinsa a few years ago.

[drbvac]

The pre and post pics are neat - I wonder if the toshigi ( if in fact it was one) simply put a hodori hamon on the blade

[cabowen]

I believe the hamon is visible in the boshi in the last picture....It is done in an ito suguha and hard to see...

[runagmc]

I don't see any hadori work, I just see the habuchi/nioiguchi...

[David Flynn]

Steve, would scan the worksheet and post it please. I'm very interested in seeing it.

[cabowen]

I don't think he will mind....Here it is.....

[Toryu2020]

Certainly is a curious call given what we can see, though I do believe that koshirae are submitted separately so there is one piece of evidence that we have that the shinsa team did not. I wonder Steve would you be willing to post photos of the hamon/nakago in the area of the hamachi?

 

Not sure it will tell us anything but as I said I'm curious now...

-t

[Jean]

koshirae are submitted separately so there is one piece of evidence that we have that the shinsa team did not

 

Tom,

 

I can't remember the number of saya that I have seen adapted to fit a blade ....Whether done in Japan or abroad ....

[cabowen]

 

Tom,

 

I can't remember the number of saya that I have seen adapted to fit a blade ....Whether done in Japan or abroad ....

 

That is possible, but in this case, not probable. In any case, it is a lengthy and difficult process to refit a saya to a blade- why bother with an "oil tempered" WWII blade?

 

It might have been a good idea for the owner to have pointed out to the shinsa team that the blade was in edo period koshirae.....then again, there seems to be plenty of other indications in the blade itself that this may not be an oil tempered wwII blade....

[steve oakley]

I have attached a few more photos. The tsuka has since been re-wrapped and the tsuka fittings are not the original from the purchase as seen in the koshirae photo. However the tusba and kojiri are unchanged.

 

Steve

[cabowen]

Usually oil quenching produces a wide, diffuse, ill defined nioi guchi. This sword seems to have a tight, crisp, thin nioi habuchi very uncharacteristic of what you see in blades that are oil quenched....

[bdgrange]

Kazu-uchimono

A mass produced blade of the Muromachi period,

circa 16th century.

 

Bill de

[pcfarrar]

I'm guessing the shinsa judges don't get to see many oil tempered showato in Japan. Is it possible they don't actually know what one looks like?

[Brian]

Peter,

I doubt that. I don't want this evolving into a shinsa-bashing thread. They are still one of the highest authorities we can turn to, and have more knowledge than we can ever hope to gain. I still maintain that this could be a simple case of mixed worksheets. I know that happened before. Probably some collector out there delighted that his Showato was judged as a Shinto. You need to put in a query, or at least contact Gordon Robson and ask him. Search the forum for him, and you will find his details. At the least, you should get an explanation.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

I'm guessing the shinsa judges don't get to see many oil tempered showato in Japan. Is it possible they don't actually know what one looks like?

 

They are illegal so you are correct in assuming they have little if any opportunity.....That is why I said the polish, which gives the ji-ba a strange look, likely caused problems...

[runagmc]

They may not see Showato often, but I bet they see plenty of Nihonto in bad polish. I can't imagine the polish being the reason here.

[cabowen]

I doubt they see many that have been polished by amateurs. I've seen quite a few that have used acid or something that gives the blade an odd, frosty appearance.

[runagmc]

I would think they would see lots of blades in bad polish... not at shinsa, but just in their everyday life, being sword experts. I guess you would know better than me though...

[cabowen]

Most swords in Japan are in good polish, certainly not amateur polish like the blade under discussion.

 

I was actually told on several occasions by shinsa team members that they were spoiled in Japan by having nearly all blades in such good polish. They said they admired people in the US for trying to study blades in poor shape and having to learn the finer points while looking through rust, scuffs, and other problems...