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Opinions on age

cabowen

By cabowen
in General Nihonto Related Discussion

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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted

I was recently sent these photos of a blade and asked what I thought as far as age is concerned. I have my opinion but would be interested in other opinions as well....

 

The blade is 29" in length, mumei, and has been given a "light touch up (amateur) polish".

 

I understand a full view of the blade would be ideal, but this is what I was sent:

 

post-1462-14196811897189_thumb.jpg

post-1462-14196811898754_thumb.jpg

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sanjuro Veteran

sanjuro

Posted
Posted

You are definitely right about the full picture being ideal, and the lack of it makes this a hard one to pin down. It has a nakago that makes me think early to mid shinto, but the rough hada and narrow sugaha say more Meiji, since I once owned a sword similar to this of that vintage. Go with the gut I always say. (My gut has been known to make mistakes however). 1800's would be my gut feeling.

 

OK.... now I've had a try at making an idiot of myself. Lets see what others think.

sanjuro Veteran

sanjuro

Posted
Posted

Jacques.

 

Whilst all the other details you give are obvious from the pictures, how can you be sure it was 1645????? :D Oh, and you forgot to mention the smith's second cousin had sushi for lunch that day. :glee:

runagmc Mentor

runagmc

Posted
Posted

Although the boshi could point to earlier, the rough forging and nakago would suggest mid to late muromachi to me.

 

Now you can tell us how wrong we all are :dunno:

 

Edit: after another look the nakago seems long for muromachi.

leo Community Regular

leo

Posted
Posted

Let´see,

lots of loose hada indeed points to late Muromachi. On the other hand clumsy nakago hints at late 19th or even 20th c.

But if o-suriage the nakago could even have been changed in Shinto times by somebody not so professional.

 

So sugata and kasane would give it away:

Elegant shape and thin to medium kasane would make it a o-suriage koto blade.

If the kasane is thick and the sugata unshapely as the nakago, it is very late!

 

Regards

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
  • Author
Posted
No, this can attest to the strength of the sword. I have seen a Shinshinto sword that had been badly bent and caused hada like this and it definitely didn't have a hagiri.

 

The ability to bend without fracture is related to toughness, not strength. Martensite, which is what the edge is composed of, is quite brittle and while very hard, has little toughness compared to steel in the unhardened state. The force required to deform the steel sufficiently to actually break welds would create stresses well in excess of those necessary to cause failure in the edge. Japanese swords do not take much laterally bending to crack- this is their main weakness. Knowing that most shinshinto are quite hard makes this even harder to fathom....As they say though, anything is possible....

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Chris, you say you have an opinion so I assume you don't know the age for sure either sure. Is this the case or are we gonna get a definite answer?

 

 

I have my opinion and have now been told that the sword was submitted for shinsa so we have the shinsa team's opinion as well...I think many will find that interesting....I will post both tomorrow after I get a copy of the worksheet for uploading...

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
  • Author
Posted

While it is indeed difficult to say with certainty from photos exactly when this blade was made, I think we can say that is not impossible to say when it wasn't made....

 

Based on the length (29 3/4 inches), nakago shape and condition, the absence of ubu ba, the thickness at the mune machi which shows the blade has been polished a bit, the obvious forging present, and the fact that it is in what appears to be original koshirae which are Edo period, all indicate to me an older blade. In my opinion, perhaps shinshinto. The "touch up polish" makes judgment difficult and I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the blade is in fact much older but without further info that would be purely speculative.

 

The blade failed shinsa with the comments that it is WWII era, made in Tokyo, and oil quenched....

 

Thanks to all who shared an opinion.....

Ted Tenold Mentor

Ted Tenold

Posted
Posted

From the images, I would suspect it to be both tired and saiha based on;

 

1) Loose kitae

2) Dead jigane

3) Dim sugu hamon

4) Altered hamachi

5) Apparent shirake in places

 

Could go many directions on period, but seems moot looking at images anyways, but in respect to the thread subject there looks to be some masame in the shinogiji. Sue-Koto Mino or Early Shinto.

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Well....being still a rank amateur, I would never dare to contradict the findings of a shinsa panel with dozens of years of collective knowledge and a lifetime of studying. But I sure would like to understand the reasoning behind that call :dunno:

That is about the last call I would have made. WW2 Showato. :?: :?: :?:

 

Brian

Derek Rising Star

Derek

Posted
Posted

I really enjoyed this topic; I found it very informational as a novice to follow the thought process of experts when trying to ID a blade. Thank you very much!

:clap:

 

 

Derek

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
  • Author
Posted
But I sure would like to understand the reasoning behind that call :dunno:

That is about the last call I would have made. WW2 Showato. :?: :?: :?:

 

Brian

 

You are not alone there!

 

Personally, I have never seen a 29 3/4" forged blade that has clearly been polished a few times, in original edo period koshirae, that was oil tempered. I can't help but wonder as well how they concluded it was made in Tokyo.....I guess it is like the blade in the other thread done in Yamato style attributed to Bungo Takada....

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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