True tachi or katana mounted as a tachi?

[Marius]

 

Picking up on fumbari, I have always understood that the degree of funbari is assessed by a comparison of the Moto-haba and Saki-haba, 

 

 

No, that is tapering, not fumbari. Fumbari is a distinct broadening at the base. It does not have much to do with the tapering from motohaba to sakihaba. 

[Dr Fox]

Marius thank you.

 As a concept (fumbari) simple, but understanding it, has always got past me. Not helped by the man standing legs apart scenario. I see that as a tapering.

"Funbari (the difference in curvature between the back of the blade and the cutting edge just above the blade collar).

Even that did not help, but now there is a new word on my page, mune-kado.

So there was my problem, the 'back' of the blade is not the mune as I thought, but the line from which the mune rises from.

Now I know where it is, its just a matter of practice to see it.

[estcrh]

Marius thank you.

 As a concept (fumbari) simple, but understanding it, has always got past me. Not helped by the man standing legs apart scenario. I see that as a tapering.

"Funbari (the difference in curvature between the back of the blade and the cutting edge just above the blade collar).

Even that did not help, but now there is a new word on my page, mune-kado.

So there was my problem, the 'back' of the blade is not the mune as I thought, but the line from which the mune rises from.

Now I know where it is, its just a matter of practice to see it.

 

Types of mune. "The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords", Kōkan Nagayama Kodansha International, 1997

 

[Marius]

Marius thank you.

 As a concept (fumbari) simple, but understanding it, has always got past me. 

 

 

You need to see it in an ubu and healthy tachi from the Kamakura period. 

[estcrh]

You need to see it in an ubu and healthy tachi from the Kamakura period.

Tachi

Kamakura period (early 13th century)

This slender ubu tachi in shirasaya has the deep koshi-zori curve becoming shallow in the upper part of the blade indicative of the very earliest curved swords, although the blade has a severe forging fault, is tired over larger areas, the hamon severely depleted, and the boshi lost, it must have once been a fine blade, portions of the hada which remain are of ko-itame with fine jinie, in places close to the chirimen-hada of early Aoe school work, the hamon has large cloudy koshiba leading to ko-midareba with complex activity

length 78.5cm.

 

[estcrh]

Tachi by Koudai(late) Houjyu, ubu, Nanboku-cho - Muromachi(early), Blade length 80.2cm(2shaku 6sun 4bu 6rin), sori(curve) : 3.0cm, width(blade bottom) : 3.21cm, thickness(blade bottom) : 0.67cm, width(blade top) :1.94cm, thickness(blade top) : 0.32cm, Mekugi ana(hole(s)) 1, weight : 783g.

 

[estcrh]

You need to see it in an ubu and healthy tachi from the Kamakura period.

Marius, I seen to remember you had a ubu Kamakura tachi once or am I wrong, if so any images?

[Darcy]

Funbari I think is more elastic a concept than is being thought of here. It's not just a measurement of a few inches above the habaki and depending on who you ask they will say different things about it. It has to do with tapering and the back and forth above has some objective and subjective errors I think.

 

First objectively wrong thing is that it is koto only. I've read it in Shinshinto Juyo and the Token Bijutsu describes a Shinkai as having funbari.

 

INOUE SHINKAI 

Both the width and the size of the point section of this blade are ordinary. The kasane is slightly thinner than usual. The back is iori-mune. Koshizori is more marked than usual, resulting in the shape with funbari.

 

KOTETSU: This wide wakizashi has a sturdy structure with a large kissaki at the top and funbari at the base.

 

Muromachi period describing a Muramasa:

 

Both mihaba and kissaki are formed in normal size. The shinogi-haba is narrow. The saki-zori is conspicuous with funbari.

 

So immediately we can rule it out as a period-only thing. They used it on a Kiyomaro tanto as well. And say it's generally true of Samonji tanto. In these cases I think it's referring simply to a tapering shape.

 

Though we see definitions that talk about the area just above the machi, it is common to see it in use to describe the taper of a whole blade:

 

Yamanaka: The Ko-Enju blades have much fumbari tapering narrow towards the kissaki ... the others have the width of the blade made about the same at the machi and towards the kissaki.  

 

English Token Bijutsu uses it again to mean over the whole blade: His tachi blades show marked thrusting curvature in funbari toward the point together with the ordinary width of the blade and the size of the kissaki.

 

Describing a suriage blade where the author is now focusing on funbari at the machi:

 

Because of absence of funbari, this tachi needs to be judged as being either suriage or osuriage.

 

With other context they say that funbari takes place  below the monouchi and above the machi:

 

The curvature in shallow koshizori shows funbari (a tachi shape in koshizori given a well balanced, stable proportion in the area between monouchi and habaki-moto).

 

And yet more context explicitly defines it as being between saki-haba and moto-haba:

 

The shape of the blade caused by this marked difference in widths between saki-haba and moto-haba is expressed in the technical term funbari literally meaning a standing position supported by two legs wide apart. (Sato Kanzan)

 

In other places you can see clearly people dismissing a blade as being old because it "lacks funbari" and they are focused on the machi area.

 

Out of this I feel the stricter sense is more correct, referring to a tapering that is seen in the lower half of the blade. But as can be seen it is often used to describe tapering over the entire blade. This feeling for me is emphasized whenever they say "funbari at the habaki" ... there is no need to keep pointing out the exact spot if funbari is tightly tied only to one spot in the blade. This is an example:

 

the sori is relatively more pronounced with funbari formed at the base

 

At best, funbari is subjective as there is no strict measurement or area provided in these definitions which refer to the feeling of a man standing with his feet apart and other poetic versions like that. So for me I took it to be taper, specifically and more correctly, taper close to the machi but in a general sense taper over the entire blade. 

 

Just in the Token Bijutsu there is enough material to support both interpretations, but it is most often mentioned in association with koshi-zori blades. 

[Jean]

Very interesting Darcy. The Fumbari concept while visible on some blades is very difficult to apply on others. The best example I can figure is the Odenta Mitsuyo (Miike). Years ago you put on kantei a Miike Mitsuyo blade that I was able to kantei because what stroke me was the little difference between saki haba and moto haba. The original O Denta Mitsuyo blade is describe nevertheless as Fumbari.

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/sai4.htm

 

I only see a slight tapering...