True tachi or katana mounted as a tachi?

[estcrh]

Eric. Do you own this blade???? If you do, I'll be over to wherever you live. We can get drunk, see who can tell the biggest lies and I'll steal it from you. :D

Keith, no but I will have access to it and a new Nikon D3000, I have a better idea now what to look for, I will see if I can get some good clear photographs.

[drbvac]

""Impressive blade, I presume that it is tachi meied? (I love this neologism )""

 

Of course its tachi meieded.

 

 

""Rare to see what appears to be a yaki-dashi on a mid muromachi period blade.""

""Yes, a sugu yakidashi is not to be expected on a koto period blade. John"

 

It could very well be my less than stellar picture taking. The hamon near the nakago is suguha and then about 3" from the habaki it goes all midare and then tapers out to suguha again. I don't think it is actually yakidashi- just a change.

 

 

It also has the elusive "funbari"

 

[John A Stuart]

Hi Brian, Did Tsuruta san not make an oshigata of this sword? If he did, it would be nice to see it, to visualise better what you mean. John

[runagmc]

Funny how he mentions the funbari... Many people on this forum have argued that funbari can only be found on Heian and Kamakura tachi...

[sanjuro]

Many people on this forum have argued that funbari can only be found on Heian and Kamakura tachi..

 

Not 'CAN ONLY' , Funbari can be found ORIGINALLY on tachi from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Which is to say that this is when the feature was most commonly incorporated on tachi for various reasons. Tachi did not simply jump from one style to the next in nice crisp gradiations with a specific time at which a particular feature promptly disappeared and a new one took its place. Old style tachi were still being made long after the end of the Kamakura period alongside the then current style, and they may well have included the feature called funbari. Indeed, there have been tachi made in deliberate emulation of Kamakura styles incorporating funbari as late as the Shin shinto period. :D

[John A Stuart]

I hope that when people mention funbari they have the correct understanding of what it really is. It is not the taper seen in a lot of swords from the width of the motohaba to the sakihaba ( this is defined wrongly in a lot of places, even some Japanese sources). It is the fairly abrupt taper in the area from the machi upwards (in the forte) a short way (10-15cm) where the mune is not parallel to the ha. The importance of which is to strengthen the forte. John

[drbvac]

John:

 

Tsuruta san only did this certificate for me a long time ago and didn't do an oshigata as I did not purchase the blade from him - I wish I could take better pics - will set it all up and try and get it better for now and future use, when I get back from Florida !!

[John A Stuart]

Sure. I wouldn't be hurrying back though. Nice beaches and cold beer and all that!!! John

[Jussi Ekholm]

This has been good thread, as a novice who is currently mostly intrested in tachi I've found this a good read.

 

Nice summary, Tom! I'd just like to add that the NBTHK classifies all Mumei and/or Ô-Suriage Mumei Daitô as "Katana", no matter what period they were made in.

 

This particular comment explains a lot to me, thank you Guido.

 

As for the use of word funbari outside nihonto collectors. Well being a young collector I first used to collect modern production swords. I guess the word funbari is somewhat popular amongst production sword collectors nowdays. It used to be yokote a few years back. Like Ted explained in his post many (I would dare to say most) of the average sword collectors understand the funbari as difference between motohaba and sakihaba.

 

Unfortunately I have not yet been fortunate enough to see in real life a sword with funbari, and it is first somewhat hard to try to get it from pictures and written descriptions. However the more you keep looking and as your knowledge grows you will slowly start to understand it better even from pics and descriptions alone. One good book to look at old koto tachi is Sano Catalogue - An Early Style of a Japanese Sword.

 

Defining differences between tachi and koto katana is very hard for a novice like me. In that above book there are examples of koto katana that based on their characteristics I would think of tachi (well these have katana-mei in book but if they were mumei...).

[runagmc]

Not 'CAN ONLY' , Funbari can be found ORIGINALLY on tachi from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Which is to say that this is when the feature was most commonly incorporated on tachi for various reasons. Tachi did not simply jump from one style to the next in nice crisp gradiations with a specific time at which a particular feature promptly disappeared and a new one took its place. Old style tachi were still being made long after the end of the Kamakura period alongside the then current style, and they may well have included the feature called funbari. Indeed, there have been tachi made in deliberate emulation of Kamakura styles incorporating funbari as late as the Shin shinto period. :D

Keith, what you say is exactly my point, which is why it makes no sense to say funbari can only be found up to the Kamakura era. Last time we had this discussion there were several people who argued that funbari is only seen on ubu Kamakura and older tachi, which doesn't make sense to me. Funbari is just a physical feature that can be made into any blade. I fully agree that it originated and is most common in early tachi, but to say nothing outside of that era can have funbari is wrong to me. Also, funbari is not something that just IS or IS NOT present. It's something that has a range, from none to alot. There can be no funbari, or a little funbari, all the way to very prominent funbari. And I'm talking about abrupt widening at the machi. Anyway, sorry to take the post off track.

[sanjuro]

I dont follow your reasoning here. If a blade has no funbari then funbari IS NOT present. If it has any funbari of any measurable degree, then funbari IS present...... Ergo, funbari is either present or it is not.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here. :?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Indeed, there have been tachi made in deliberate emulation of Kamakura styles incorporating funbari as late as the Shin shinto period.

 

I would like to see an example.

[runagmc]

I dont follow your reasoning here. If a blade has no funbari then funbari IS NOT present. If it has any funbari of any measurable degree, then funbari IS present...... Ergo, funbari is either present or it is not.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here. :?

Your right, it's either present or not, but it can be present in varying degrees of prominence. I think you know what I'm getting at, but just in case your still confused,

[sanjuro]

Adam.

 

Believe me , I am not confused about the meaning of funbari or to what degree it is present. Your example incidentally is a bit off. A steepening of the mune does not produce funbari. Funbari is a widening of the blade surface beginning at the machi and extending some ten to fifteen centimetres above the machi, and blending then with the normal sugata of the blade. (Like a man standing feet apart, it has been said). But I do know what you are trying to convey.

 

Jacques.

 

I have a blade at home that is a shinto/shinshinto tachi with a rather gentle funbari. It cant be anything but a tachi blade since the kissaki is Ikari O kissaki and it is almost impossible to use such a blade mounted as a Katana. Its also in an original full tachi koshirae of the period. When I return to Australia in a few days I'll take a decent picture of it and post it here. :D

[runagmc]

Keith, I didn't point to the mune in the picture. And while your right, if you notice, often the shape of the mune machi and the suguta of the nakago can give the illusion of a sword having more prominent funbari... specially on old tachi that have the nakago kicked back like this,

[runagmc]

Jacques, here's some pics to consider, all from swords much later than Kamakura,

[runagmc]

[runagmc]

[runagmc]

[estcrh]

I'll take a decent picture of it and post it here. :D

Keith, I have been waiting for this!!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Adam

I hope reallly you are joking

[sanjuro]

Adam.

 

What you have posted are not examples of funbari. Most are Shinto or Shin shinto katana (except the Shibata example) and all have a normal sugata for a relatively healthy blade that has not been extensively polished and become tired. This is often where those who have not seen funbari in the flesh as it were, make the same mistake. A koto blade with funbari may be tired from many polishes but unless it has been shortened and a degree of the original funbari has been lost, there will still be a marked widening of the blade in that lower 10 to 15 centimetres of the blade. This is where your statement of funbari being a matter of degree is at fault. What you have seen in koto blades that have been shortened is what is left of the original funbari, this will have differed according to the amount of shortening the blade has suffered. It is from that which has come your interpretation of what constitutes funbari. At least this is how it seems to me. :D

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

A true funbari here

[paulb]

Hi Jacques,

sorry to disagree with you but in the image you have posted the apparent fumbari appears to be more the result of the polisher removing a damaged section in the ha near the ha-machi than the smiths intention to narrow the blade.

[runagmc]

Jacques, so your telling me you believe not one of the blades I posted has ANY amount of funbari? While the Munechika does have funbari, alot of it's prominence seems to come from the nakago being angled back and the way the blade has been polished over the years. No, I'm not joking at all... I'm wondering if you and Keith might be kidding yourselves.

[sanjuro]

We seem to have come full circle in this topic, at least concerning funbari. The subject of funbari was discussed in this thread on pages 1 through 3 with Adam disagreeing similarly. This subject has I think become a pointless excercise not worthy of repeating. Clearly, any further explanations will be greeted by the same disagreements from the same quarter. Can we move on or is this going to become, as other recent subjects on this forum have done, a sort of nihonto 'groundhog day'?

[runagmc]

What you have seen in koto blades that have been shortened is what is left of the original funbari, this will have differed according to the amount of shortening the blade has suffered

Keith, I love how you assume that I don't know something as basic as the difference between ubu, suriage, and o-suriage state of a blade, and what affect shortening would have on funbari:roll:

[runagmc]

A koto blade with funbari may be tired from many polishes but unless it has been shortened and a degree of the original funbari has been lost, there will still be a marked widening of the blade in that lower 10 to 15 centimetres of the blade.

I would say over polishing can have the effect of making funbari look MORE pronounced. Many times on old blades (even tanto) the area directly up from the hamachi has to be left wider just to maintain the machi.

[runagmc]

Here is a pic of a ko Bizen Tomonari that is always said to have funbari. Decide for yourselves...

[Dr Fox]

Some confusion may be resulting because there are 2 different meanings/usages of the word fumbari. One refers to a large difference in the widths of a blade at the machi and at the yokote (start of the kissaki), the moto-haba and saki-haba. The other use refers to a noticeable widening of a blade at the very bottom of the ha, the last couple inches down to the ha-machi. This is often described as being like a man standing with his legs apart. This second usage is, I believe, found only on very early tachi (and on later blades that have been improperly polished).

Grey

 

Grey

Picking up on fumbari, I have always understood that the degree of funbari is assessed by a comparison of the Moto-haba and Saki-haba, which is exactly as you say. Also that suriage will remove the original funbari to some degree, using both these meanings advise please on the following.

I am looking at a tachi which has all the hall marks of suriage, to the sum of 4.cms. Moto-Haha is 3.5 cms and Saki-haba is 2.6 cms. Does this then hold that yes, before suriage this blade would have had funbari to a greater degree?