Soshin Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Dear NMB Members, As may of you know that there will be a upcoming NTHK-NPO shinsa in the USA on Oct. 7, 8, 9 in Minneapolis, MN. I had a quick general shinsa question that pertains to tsuba. When it comes to damage related to use is it allowed for a tsuba. I not refering to something as devastating as a burned tsuba but wanted to know more about much less devastating damage from normal use often encountered on antique tsuba of significant age. The first example I would like to discuss to start off this discussion is what I think is a Owari Sukashi tsuba with a crack that extends less then half-way through a rim which is very thick at 6.0 mm. The crack is in the upper right side of the tsuba. As you can see the crack is only visible on the Omote side of the tsuba. Tsuba still feels very strong in hand even with the small crack. Would such a use related damage cause the tsuba to fail shinsa and be give the dreaded pink paper? I was thinking about this issue as I was going through my tsuba collection decided which tsuba I should send as I have a slot reserved at the upcoming NTHK-NPO Shinsa. The question also crossed my mind when I remember seeing a real Nobuie tsuba that had been test cut on by a sword at some point in the distant past. Here is the Nobuie tsuba in question: http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/ono.htm. It is the first tsuba on the page. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my question. If additional photos are required please let me know. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
christianmalterre Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Dear David what shall be the sense so to let get it certified and pay fees? Your´s Tsuba is interesting from point of view of an antique and original item-much lesser interesting,but,so to let it certify... It´s that not worth.It´s damaged.It´s not spectacular in any sense. You´d better do so to study it entirely for what it is and does show you-and in keeping it in mind-looking for better quality...Not? Christian Quote
Soshin Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Posted September 13, 2011 Hi Christian, I think I understand your point. As I do have other tsuba without papers in my collection that I think are of the Owari Sukashi school that doesn't show any damage. I will be submitting one of them for the upcoming NTHK shinsa. This type of damage does detract from the overall value of the piece but I still like the bold mon design very much therefore I will keep the tsuba in my collection as a reference piece. The tekkotsu and character of the iron which I can't capture well in my photos are fine and are characteristic of the Momoyama Period Owari Sukashi school. Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my thread. :D Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
sanjuro Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 David. May I ask what makes you think the damage is use related? Since there doesnt appear to be any other damage on the tsuba that indicates it has been used, I am at a loss to define a simple shallow crack as any more than a forging fault. It is all speculative of course, but worth asking the question I think. Quote
Soshin Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Posted September 13, 2011 Hi Keith G., I was just being a bit speculative myself when thinking the crack was use related. I will conceded that the shallow crack might just be a forging fault that didn't stop the tsuba from being mounted on a sword and used. Thanks for the valid question. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Henry Wilson Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 The crack looks like a fault in a lamination. Actually it is not that noticeable and does not spoil the tsuba appearance IMO. Quote
Soshin Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Posted September 14, 2011 Hi Henry, Thanks for the kind words. The creak is not that noticeable and is often needed to be pointed out when I show people the tsuba in person. I had to be told about it while I was in the process of buying it. Can anyone identify what I think is the Kamon (家紋) design of the tsuba? It reminds me of the following tsuba that is of the Ko-katchushi school that I have in my research notes. I think the Ko-katchushi tsuba is older and from the Muromachi Period (circa 1450). I have observed this same Ko-katchushi tsuba in the book Tsuba An Aesthetic Study on page 26. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Henry Wilson Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 Hi David the creak I spent yesterday calling a 'crepe" a creep....... A sign of old age or too much of or both I would calｌ the sukashi 葉透 but that is just me. It might also be 糸巻き but that could be pushing it. I am pretty sure it is NOT a star or a spider`s web.... Do you know the dimensions of the tsuba? Some people (the Sasano crew :D ) could argue it is pre-Muromachi if the size is relatively small. This thread has the potential of turning into another informative one if we all decide to discuss (which means ask and answer questions NOT bicker) about early iron AKA Ko Katushi Ko Tosho etc..... Come on guys, I know you can do it... Quote
Soshin Posted September 15, 2011 Author Report Posted September 15, 2011 Do you know the dimensions of the tsuba? Some people (the Sasano crew :D ) could argue it is pre-Muromachi if the size is relatively small. This thread has the potential of turning into another informative one if we all decide to discuss (which means ask and answer questions NOT bicker) about early iron AKA Ko Katushi Ko Tosho etc..... Come on guys, I know you can do it... Hi Henry, My tsuba a latter copy is 8.1 cm round and is 6.0 mm thick and is of the same identical design. The tsuba I posted a photo of I am not sure of the size. The identical tsuba in Tsuba An Aesthetic Study on page 26 is 7.0 cm by 6.8 cm and is dated in the book as circa 1400. Hope you find the information helpful. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Henry Wilson Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 Hi David What makes you think your tsuba is Owari sukashi? I don't think it made from the right kind of metal to be from Owari. Quote
christianmalterre Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 Well what is,i do ask me here-the topic? Of course it´s not Owari(if finally it shall ben attributed as an Owari Tsuba-me,myself will immediately throw away every one of mine Tsuba and start collecting stamps instead..) The Crack(see above);is not an lamination fault(whatever this shall be-as this equally is an fatal smithing error in mine eyes)-but an fatal error wich does make an Tsuba pointing into an category,where myself would say-study it-and later "throw it over board"! (i equally did give an "evaluation" already) The Ko-Katchushi Tsuba is "an banana"-and you can´t compare "Bananas" with "Apes" So in sum-i just allow me to answer in an metaphorical way(see picture which i just got sent by an friend equally humoresque like myself): --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- May this be an answer you like to hear? Please do remind!-This is an "joke"-so to answer on those following questions which did happen here. David was right(i think)-so just to ask-and he already got an answer! and i think-it´s good to ask questions... What but;and of course was an mistake;-is that David did compare the His Tsuba with that Ko-Katchushi... Christian Quote
Henry Wilson Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 I don't think David is comparing his tsuba to the Ko Katushi, I think he is just comparing the design. Quote
Guido Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 Geez, some posts seem to have been written using an Enigma ... Quote
Rich T Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 Geez, some posts seem to have been written using an Enigma ... Hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Thats priceless.................................. I vote Guido to be KING. Quote
Soshin Posted September 15, 2011 Author Report Posted September 15, 2011 Hi Everyone, Lets all just cool down the weekend is almost here. I only posted the Ko-Kachushi tsuba because it had a identical design and that I was thinking my tsuba a later copy of the same design. To answer your question Henry. The only reason I was thinking it was a Owari Sukashi tsuba was that the former owner thought so therefore I was using this as just a starting point for my own research. The crack not sure if it is "fatal flaw" but in terms of dept it is superficial and the structure of the tsuba is strong. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote
Henry Wilson Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 What"s wrong with using Engima? I use it for English to Japanese all the time!! Love you all lots Quote
christianmalterre Posted September 15, 2011 Report Posted September 15, 2011 Me,too Henry V. equally was "KING" So in sum?-better to contribute? Christian Quote
ububob Posted September 16, 2011 Report Posted September 16, 2011 As another king once said to Anna, "Is a puzzlement." Christian, when you decide to throw away your Owari collection please let me know I want to be there for that~! :D Quote
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