Ken-Hawaii Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Well, the "young lady" I corresponded with turned out to be a rich old man, but he entrusted with me both the Nara tanto and...something else. I am honestly not sure what this blade is, but here are some photos: The overall length is 28.4 cm, nagasa 19.6 cm, motohaba 2.8 cm, moto-kasane 0.5 cm, sori 0.15 cm, iori mune, kissaki moroka zukuri (I think), suguha hamon, masame hada, sujikai yasurime, seriously suriage nakago, & the turn-back portion of the boshi is not sharpened. The beast on the saya & tsukagashira appears to be a baku, but I could certainly be wrong! I don't recognize the saya's mon, but the filigree reminds me of my Heianjo tsuba. I would truly appreciate finding out just what the heck it is, any details on school/smith, &, as he wants to sell both blades, an approximate value. Mahalo!/Arigatou! Ken Quote
cabowen Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Blade is signed Yoshimitsu..... Quote
Brian Posted September 11, 2011 Report Posted September 11, 2011 Meiji period export piece? It is what it is I guess....little tanto in the "kogarasu maru" style blade shape. I like it just for the Baku fittings..unusual theme. If you don't take it..drop me info? Brian Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Posted September 11, 2011 Thanks for the reading of the mei, Chris. And I'll be happy to give you second shot at the tanto, Brian...as soon as I can determine, with help, just what it is & what it's worth. I've found nothing on-line that looks at all like this blade. The owner had to put his mother in a nursing home, & is ready & willing to sell both blades immediately, but I simply don't have enough information on how to value it. Any ideas will be much appreciated! Ken Quote
Brian Posted September 11, 2011 Report Posted September 11, 2011 Shinshinto/Meiji kissaki moroha-zukuri style blade made for export? That would be my guess. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html Brian Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Posted September 11, 2011 Shape-wise, I agree. But how can we determine for sure that it's Shinshinto/Meiji? And what's the value if it is? I wouldn't mind owning the tanto, Brian, or selling it to you if it's not in my budget, but I'm obliged to do the best I can for a fellow Rotarian. And that means getting some more input. Ken Quote
Grey Doffin Posted September 11, 2011 Report Posted September 11, 2011 Hi Ken, Seems strange that the bottom of the nakago and mei have been clipped; perhaps the blade and koshirae were made separately and later married. This should adversely affect the value but with Meiji and later made Nihonto with a bit of flash the normal rules don't seem to apply. If I had to guess what this piece would sell for on ebay I would say between $500 and $1K, but I think a fair price would be closer to the lower figure. The other tanto you asked about (of which we've seen only the mei) is likely worth a lot less. Happy Birthday. Grey Quote
k morita Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Hi, The family crest is "Yatsu-choji-guruma" (eight-clove wheel) . 八つ丁子車 Probably, Fuchi is engraved with eight choji(s). Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks for the wishes, Grey. Obviously Linda let that cat out of the bag...she is taking off the 15th to "surprise" me - as long as it's with a Nihonto, I won't mind at all! Morita-san, thanks for that information. Do you have any information on which clan or family is associated with this mon? I can't find anything in my references. Also, the fuchi has a completely different pattern, similar to the scrolls surrounding the mon. Ken Quote
k morita Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Ken-Hawaii said: Also, the fuchi has a completely different pattern, similar to the scrolls surrounding the mon.Ken The Fuchi is "choji-karakusa pattern". Therefore I imagined that there were probably eight cloves on Fuchi. Quote
Mark Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 the polish looks good, if there are no flaws or problems, and the koshire fits well i would think $1200-1500 would be the right range, the unsual features and condition would probably help Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Aloha Ken The 8 clove combination is called Yatsu Choji, scroll down the page for some varients (Courtesy of the Tozando database again btw): http://www.tozandoshop.com/v/vspfiles/k ... ant11.html Cheers Malcolm Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks, Malcolm. My wife & I bought our last iaito from Tozando, but I had no idea they had that level of information on mon. Guess I need to prowl around that Web-site a bit more. Any idea who the mon is associated with? I'm really hoping to at least determine a period when it was made. Mark, the only defect I see is that the very tip of the blade is very slightly blunted, Or rather it isn't pointed or rounded as I would expect, although I can't see or feel anything unusual, almost like it was made that way. Ken Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Ken (nice name on this board), I think it could be a Yoroidoshi. I might be wrong, but it is a thought. /Martin Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Posted September 12, 2011 Martin, all the yoroidoshi I have seen have a triangular blade cross-section, are much thicker, & are about half again as long, to boot. If I was sticking a blade into yoroi in hopes of hitting a vital organ, I'd sure want something longer than this one! Ken P.S. I was never all that fond of my first name until I found out about Japanese blades. :D Quote
NihontoEurope Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Ken, Yes, it should at least be a bit thicker. : ) /Martin Quote
k morita Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Ken, This family crest is a certain Imperial Court's(the nobility ) family crest. 三条西家 The Sanjonishi family. http://www.harimaya.com/o_kamon1/kuge_html/kuge_2.html Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Posted September 12, 2011 Many thanks, Morita-san! That Web-site's font set must be something I don't have because everything comes through as splatter, but with that information as a lead-in, I should be able to find out more about the blade. Amazing how many great brains & knowledge are available on NMB!! Ken Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Posted September 13, 2011 Okay, I was able to work out a fair deal with the seller, & both tanto blades are now mine. Morita-san's eagle eyesight identifying the kamon as the Sanjonishi family allowed me to start researching more info, & I'm now guesstimating that the baku tanto was likely worn as maezashi by an official in the Emperor's Imperial court. From the obvious aged look of the koshirae, that leads me to believe that it could have belonged to Sanjonishi Sanetaka (1467-1568) who was a courtier & scholar in Go-Nara's court, as I can't find any other Imperial court officials in the Sanjonishi family after him (although his daughters married well). I plan to meet next week with my togishi to see if he thinks the blade requires a polish before I send it & the koshirae to shinsa. I'm fairly sure it will paper, & we'll know a lot more afterwards. Do any of you know of a mainland U.S. shinsa coming up in the next few months? I'm looking for an excuse to go! Ken Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Morning all Hi Ken, to read the site from Morita san you have to adjust the encoding. Using Google Chrome, go to Customise & Control (The spanner top right) - Click. Go down to Tools (A Menu will appear) Go down the menu to Encoding - Click. It will be one of the Japanese codes, just play around until the kanji appears. Cheers Malcolm Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Posted September 13, 2011 Malcolm, thanks for the idea, but it's a moot point as I can't read Kanji.... I have passed the link on to my Japanese daughter-in-law. Ken Quote
Brian Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Ken-Hawaii said: From the obvious aged look of the koshirae, that leads me to believe that it could have belonged to Sanjonishi Sanetaka (1467-1568) who was a courtier & scholar in Go-Nara's court, as I can't find any other Imperial court officials in the Sanjonishi family after him (although his daughters married well). That's what we call a "giant leap of faith" :lol: Pressed brass fittings...Non-typical shape...Meiji type mon selected at random. Not sure this leads me back to the 1500's. Hope you are right, but I would be very surprised. Anyways..nice items. Brian Quote
cabowen Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Ken-Hawaii said: Do any of you know of a mainland U.S. shinsa coming up in the next few months? I'm looking for an excuse to go! Ken Minneapolis, MN, Oct 7-8-9. 2011 We are offering a submission service for those unable to attend...email me for more info. Quote
chrisf Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 'Leap of faith' seems a bit of an understatement Brian,I agree with you that this looks a Meiji piece. The presence of a mon means that the owner claimed an affinity with that particular clan,it doesn't signify that it was the property of a daimyo or important persona. I think I'm right in saying that gimei Yoshimitsu tanto were commonplace,it was the designer label of tanto as Masamune was with katana,it didn't seem to matter that it was gimei,appearance was everything. I have always understood that court and samurai dress was highly codified,not sure this fits into that category. What is the date of the first Japanese reference to elephants? Quote
k morita Posted September 14, 2011 Report Posted September 14, 2011 ken, If Tanto(maybe Kaiken?) reaches your house, please attach clear photos here. I believe the mei is not Yoshimitsu. Yoshihiro(?) or something..... Curled hair and a round eye show the feature of Baku (there is an exception). In the case of the eye of an elephant, it is written like a crescent moon. Looks like this smilled eyes :D Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Posted September 14, 2011 Morita-san, I was not familiar with kaiken, but looked it up. Thank you. I bought the tanto yesterday, so it is mine for any purpose. Which photos would like me to shoot more clearly? I have included a slightly out-of-focus close-up of the baku, but you can see the eye is definitely round, rather than crescent-shaped. Ken Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Posted September 14, 2011 I've found these links for baku that look vaguely like the ones on my tanto: http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/baku.html http://muza-chan.net/Japan/index.php/blog/baku http://ojisanjake.blogspot.com/2009/05/yokai-gallery-1.html http://americanmonsters.com/site/2010/01/baku-china-Japan/ Interesting that they are described as both nightmare eaters & protective architectural elements at Buddhist temples and Shintō shrines. Why would a smith place baku on both a tsuka & saya? Ken Quote
chrisf Posted September 14, 2011 Report Posted September 14, 2011 Thank you for the explanation Morita-san and please excuse my ignorance. Quote
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