Need help ID'ing my grandfather's WW2 bring back

[Hoss622]

Hello all. I'm a newbie, and this is my first post, so I appreciate your patience and help.

 

I frequent a gun board, AR15.com, and I recently posted some pictures of some stuff my grandfather brought back from his time in the Pacific. He was a Marine who fought on Iwo Jima and also spent some time in Japan, during the occupation.

 

One of the items, is what I believe to be an arsenal-made, NCO sword, which he picked up on Iwo Jima, as the family lore goes. However, enough guys on AR15.com told me that sword possibly having some value, that I figured I'd post the pics here and ask for help.

ETA: Signature - Mike M.

 

Thank you in advance for your help!

[drdata]

Welcome "Hoss". A few things.

 

1. Please sign with a real name last initial, as per forum rules.

 

2. Looks like an officers sword rather than an nco.

 

3. You should repost the nakago/tang pics vertically to help those with skills translate. Tip/kissaki pointing up. Complete kanji newbie here, but looks like a cursive/grass kanji.

 

4. I could make out no stamps. A good thing generally. May be real gendiato. The hamon look a little lifeless so may be oil quenched. Others here can confirm.

 

Nice find, and again, welcome.

 

Regards

 

PS> If any doubt please read the faq on care and handling. Never clean the tang, only light oil on blade, etc.

[Grey Doffin]

The signature is Yoshiharu and the date is Showa Kinoe Saru (21st year of the zodiacal calendar: 1944, according to Fuller & Gregory's book, Swordsmiths of Japan).

They say about him, "Possibly of Totori and Dean of National School."

Grey

[k morita]

Hi Grey,

You are great. Yes,Yoshiharu. 義 治

[Hoss622]

Welcome "Hoss". A few things.

 

1. Please sign with a real name last initial, as per forum rules.

 

2. Looks like an officers sword rather than an nco.

 

3. You should repost the nakago/tang pics vertically to help those with skills translate. Tip/kissaki pointing up. Complete kanji newbie here, but looks like a cursive/grass kanji.

 

4. I could make out no stamps. A good thing generally. May be real gendiato. The hamon look a little lifeless so may be oil quenched. Others here can confirm.

 

Nice find, and again, welcome.

 

Regards

 

PS> If any doubt please read the faq on care and handling. Never clean the tang, only light oil on blade, etc.

 

Hi,

 

I updated my first post with the signature. Sorry about the newbie mistake. Looks like some other guys have some new info for me. You guys are great!

[Hoss622]

The signature is Yoshiharu and the date is Showa Kinoe Saru (21st year of the zodiacal calendar: 1944, according to Fuller & Gregory's book, Swordsmiths of Japan).

They say about him, "Possibly of Totori and Dean of National School."

Grey

 

Forgive my ignorance, but does this mean that this blade wasn't hammered out at an aresenal, but made by someone with some skill? Thank you so much for the info!

[Hoss622]

The signature is Yoshiharu and the date is Showa Kinoe Saru (21st year of the zodiacal calendar: 1944, according to Fuller & Gregory's book, Swordsmiths of Japan).

They say about him, "Possibly of Totori and Dean of National School."

Grey

 

You guys are awesome.

 

A few questions:

 

Presumably, this has more value than we thought. In case we want to get some insurance on it, do you know an approximate value?

 

It's in decent shape as it sits, but should we have someone restore it, or just oil it lightly and take care of it?

 

What kind of oil do you recommend? After handling it, I just wiped it down with some Breakfree (CLP) and a rag.

 

What should I use to secure the handle? It literally had some match sticks jammed through the holes. I'm thinking either a properly fitting wooden dowel rod, or maybe some kind of well fitting spring-pin or shoulder bolt.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Mike,

Not just a machine made blade but not true traditionally made Nihonto either. Most likely Yoshiharu had little or no training as a swordsmith and made the blade by hand from factory tool steel. Hard to tell from the photos alone if this might be water hardened or the less desirable oil hardened. For value I would say between $800 and $1,200, but other members here know more about the WWII military swords and might have a better idea.

I wouldn't have it restored unless you first spend serious time studying. Restoration is quite spendy (probably $2K) and would be lost on you unless you had the knowledge and experience to appreciate it. After the study you'll likely decide you don't want to spend the money on this sword.

Here is a link to a care and etiquette page that will answer your questions on upkeep:

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Do not try to fix anything you think needs fixing (rust, bend, patina, shine, whatever); anything you try that isn't in the care & etiquette above is likely to do damage.

The pin through the handle (mekugi) needs to be replaced ASAP; it is very important. Find a bamboo chopstick and whittle one.

Grey

[chrisf]

From your images it's almost impossible to say if it's a gendaito or arsenal made gunto,I'm fairly sure that I've seen this signature on gunto,it's completely different to the gendai smith who worked in the Yoshichika Ke in Tokyo who used different strokes and signed 'Toto ju nin Yoshiharu'.

Hawley has a Yoshiharu YOS1407 postwar and working in Tottori with the usual 8 value and I think that's where Ron sourced a lot of his information.

My initial feeling is that your sword is a gunto but it's a terrific group of items along with provenance.

A whittled down chopstick will make a good mekugi (peg),DON'T use screws or bolts and if you oil the blade with a very light oil,wipe off the surplus before resheathing with toilet tissue,excess oil will soak into the wooden scabbard liners.

'Dean of National Technical School' and similar titles,does anyone know if they actually signified a position or just an honorary title? CAB maybe?

[Hoss622]

Thanks for all of the advice guys.

 

Would it be worth it to take some better pictures in natural light (no flash)?

[cabowen]

'Dean of National Technical School' and similar titles,does anyone know if they actually signified a position or just an honorary title? CAB maybe?

 

There was no National Technical School....I believe this to be a miss translation of the title meishou 名匠 (master craftsman) which was given to many smiths by a national guild like group　during the war....I don't recall the complete name of the group off hand...perhaps Morita san knows....

[chrisf]

Thank you Chris,on reading this by a number of smiths in Ron's books I assumed that forges had been set up in Technical Schools in locations all over Japan and these smiths were operating in both a teaching capacity with apprentices and demonstrating sword forging as part of the war effort much as existed at Ritsumeikan but I can see that your explanation is probably more likely,thank you again.

[cabowen]

If you count up all the smiths that are listed as "Dean" of a technical school, you will find that there must have been a huge number of "schools". Of course this was not the case as there wasn't a government organized training program, other than the one run by the military at the the Osaka, Tokyo, etc., arsenals. Ritsumeikan and a few others like it were run by the universities on whose campuses they were located, not by the government. The Nihon-to Gaku'in and the Tanren Denshujo were private affairs organized by Kurihara Akihide. Hope that clears this up....

[Hoss622]

On behalf of my grateful family, thank you all for helping me out. We've learned more about that sword in 24 hours, than we have in the last 65 years!

 

You guys have also picked up some big fans over on ar15.com.

[Brian]

Well...I'm a big fan of Arfcom myself

 

Brian

[chrisf]

Thanks Chris.

[Stu W]

Hello and Welcome,

 

That bayonet is a Type 30 and would not originally have been issued with that scabbard. Although the scabbard is for a Type 30 it's the last ditch version, produced at the end of the war, whereas the bayonet is an earlier issue. Have a look here...

 

http://www.japanesebayonets.net/

 

Kind regards,

Stu

[Stu W]

Further to my last...have a look here at the Army Officer Type 98...

 

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_002.htm

 

 

Regards,

Stu

[Hoss622]

Hello and Welcome,

 

That bayonet is a Type 30 and would not originally have been issued with that scabbard. Although the scabbard is for a Type 30 it's the last ditch version, produced at the end of the war, whereas the bayonet is an earlier issue. Have a look here...

 

http://www.japanesebayonets.net/

 

Kind regards,

Stu

 

My grandfather probably picked that stuff up during the occupation, in Japan.

[Hoss622]

Further to my last...have a look here at the Army Officer Type 98...

 

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_002.htm

 

 

Regards,

Stu

 

I spent about an hour looking at that stuff. Thanks!

[Nihonto Chicken]

Thought that mei looked familiar! Here's some related info from the old Yahoo Nihonto forum:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nihonto/message/34614

 

I still have my Yoshiharu sword. See mei/date pics in the above referenced forum's Photos section (upper left hand directory), select folder NC1. Mine has muji hada, suguha hamon, essentially zippo hataraki excepting some nice midare utsuri, go figure.

 

The condition of your blade doesn't seem to be all that bad, looks like a lot of white frosting but not a lot of deep, red rust. I suggest you get a decent uchiko ball (such as in a Fred Lohman sword care kit - no relation - available elsewhere as well) and do a Jim Kurrasch Memorial power uchiko job. That is, uchiko the hell out of it (but don't bear down on the shinogi - the ridgelines - you don't want to round these off, do the ji and shinogi ji separately). Enough uchiko action will erase much of the yokote, but it looks pretty well shot anyway, and revealing the boshi - the temperline pattern at the blade tip - is likely more important at this point. Just be sure to re-oil the blade when done with the uchiko. Don't touch the nakago - the tang - with either uchiko or oil, leave it as-is. About ten hours or so of uchiko work will remove most of the white frosting (but not the micro-pits) and bring out the hamon and likely hada as well (if any). Just don't get careless and cut yourself. Here's a link to similar advice I posted earlier:

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7396&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

 

Make sure you use only uchiko powder on the blade, no western style cutting agents (sandpaper, micromesh, Flitz, Simichrome, etc.) which burnish as they cut and therefore hide rather than reveal the sword's activity!!!