KUNIKANE

[micha]

Does anyone have an idea which generation Kunikane this could be. The blade has all the features of the school. I think it's a late generation but I only found some oshigata of the early generations. Thanks.

 

Micha

[Ken-Hawaii]

Micha, your JPGs aren't working. Try removing the apostrophes.

 

Ken

[micha]

Thanks Ken,

 

I hope this will work.

 

Micha

[Ken-Hawaii]

Works fine now, Micha. Thanks!

[runagmc]

mei reads: oshu kuni wake wakabayashi ju yamashiro daijo fujiwara kunikane (I think)

 

I did a quick search on nihontoclub.com and they didn't have all the generations listed but out of the ones they had the shodai was the only one to use 'wake wakabayashi ju' in the mei. Mabey someone else can give a more definative answer.

 

Is it a nice blade? The early generations are pretty highly ranked.

 

Shodai was ranked:

Hawleys- 80

Fujishiro- jo-jo saku

toko taikan- 8M

[cabowen]

There are many issues with Kunikane mei that I won't go into here. You need to get the opinion of Prof. Peter Bleed, who has made the Sendai Kunikane group the center of his sword studies for many years. He would be most interested in seeing this and would give you his educated opinion with pleasure, no doubt....He is a member of this board so just sort through the membership and PM him....

[Jimmy R]

Ruling out the shodai, nidai and sandai, there are 11 successive generations of this particular lineage with the Kunikane mei. I believe only the first two beyond the sandai received honorary titles. The waning quality of work would be the best indicator of where this smith stands in the lineage without a direct correlation to an existing mei. Please show the rest of the sword.

Jim

[Brian]

Dr Bleed had some interesting info here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8998&p=74626

There are a great many bad Kunikane signatures out there, largely because the Kunikane 1 successfully started a long line of smiths that survived and was supported by the Date family. There were 14 generations in the main line. They practiced the style of the founder and enjoyed official support. The middle generations produced mumei swords that went right into the armory of the Date family. (Sendai meikan lists NO legitmate signatures from the 4th to 10th generations.) After the Meiji Restoration those unsigned swords were sold to an antiques dealer - apparently in Sendai - who had them signed --- mainly with the Master's name. Dealers refer to these as "Sendai Atobori." They can be viewed as "school"swords, but those "after signatures" are being removed nowadays. That is, they are being treated like "gimei."

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Never seen a Sendai Kunikane with keshô yasuri, the nakago jiri also bothers me.

[cabowen]

After the Meiji Restoration those unsigned swords were sold to an antiques dealer - apparently in Sendai - who had them signed --- mainly with the Master's name. Dealers refer to these as "Sendai Atobori." They can be viewed as "school"swords, but those "after signatures" are being removed nowadays. That is, they are being treated like "gimei."

 

 

This is what I was referring to....

[Peter Bleed]

I have come to this discussion rather late, but I always welcome the opportunity to consider the swords by Kunikane. In this case, it would be most appropriate to say swords “signed by Kunikane”.

Thank you Micha for presenting this sword and thank you Chris for recalling my interest in Sendai shinto. Indeed, I do love blades by Kunikane since they are 1) interesting and 2) at their best, beautifully crafted.

I believe that Micha’s sword is signed “Oshu kuni Wakabayashi ju Yamashiro Daijo Fujiwara Kunikane.” This signature includes information used by KK 1, but I find no record of him using all of this information together – the “ju” and information both about where he lived (Wakabayashi) and his honorary title. Mebbe there is research potential here, but there is also an ‘over the top’ quality to this signature --- and in the suspicious world of Nippon-to such things are a red flag. This could be the sort of thing added by a Meiji era signature cutter with only so-so reference material

The 9thKK is recorded to have signed “Oshu Sendai Wakabayashi ju KK” but he was nobody’s Daijo. And he seems not to have made many swords. He apprenticed in Sendai with Kanekura and then went down to Edo to work with Hojoji Kuniyoshi but died at the age of 30.

Number 10, KK is also reported to have used the “Oshu Sendai Wakabayashi ju KK” signature, but again without title and with inclusion of “Sendai.” Number 10 went down to Edo to study with Masahide and he made LOTS of swords - - before dying at 29 in 1783! There is lots of interest in number 10. He seems to have been active and something of a promoter, but I doubt that he would have claimed a title like “Yamashiro Daijo.”

All this to say, IMHO this signature is NOT like any documented to a known Kunikane smith. It is most similar to signatures used by the first Kunikane.

Turning to the look and quality of the nakago, I have to say that it looks awfully fresh to be an early shinto. The ha-agari jiri is unusual, but the yasuri-me might be all right. Remember that KK1 swords all(?) have a little ding in the side of the original meguki ana. I do not know why that is, but note that Micha’s sword has a funny punch by the ana. Beyond that, the signature itself is close enough to warrant very close analysis. The ‘kuni’ character is – well – wrong, but the ‘kane’ looks in the ballpark. In sum, I think this signature deserves shinsa, Unfortunately, shinsa teams seem suspicious of Kunikane swords so I doubt that this sword will paper easily. Still, I would NOT remove this signature until it had been looked at somebody who was specifically familiar with KK1.

As an aside, let me say that Wakabayashi is a ward on the east side of modern Sendai. It is ‘behind’ the main train station on flat land that was pretty working class. I think the area were the Kunikane forge was located was pretty far inland, but Wakabayashi was among the area heavily hit by the tsunami.

Again, thank you Micha for giving me a chance to think about Kunikane.

Peter

[micha]

Hi,

 

Thank you all and especially Peter. Is there any documentation/book about Kunikane.

I've add some pictures.

 

Micha

[k morita]

mei reads: oshu kuni wake wakabayashi ju yamashiro daijo fujiwara kunikane (I think)

 

I did a quick search on nihontoclub.com and they didn't have all the generations listed but out of the ones they had the shodai was the only one to use 'wake wakabayashi ju' in the mei. Mabey someone else can give a more definative answer.

 

Hi, :D

Correct pronunciation (reading) of the mei is as follows.

" Oshu, Kokubun Wakabayashi ju, Yamashiro daijo Fujiwara Kunikane."

Kokubun-Wakabayashi area is Sendai city now.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I think man can eliminate the 3 first dai, and i would lean towards a gimei.

[Peter Bleed]

How embarrassing! Morita-san is completely correct in his transliteration of this signature. Forgive me for the error. I think Jacques is also correct that this is more like the 1st generation than the 9th or 10th. I would stop short of calling it a gimei, tho. In the world of Sendai shinto these things happen. The question we need to ask - and answer - is do we as collectors prefer this blade - and others like it - with this signature or as a "de-signed" mumei. Please answer that question! I have a couple of swirds that might need to be "unsigned"!

Peter

[micha]

Thanks again,

 

It is not my sword so it's not my decision to unsign it.

I think I would never remove the signature, cause it's part of the history of that sword. And if you remove a signature than it still will be the same sword. People who want to remove a signature always do it because they think they can't sell it or getting more money out of it and not to preserve the sword.

 

Micha

[Ray Singer]

Alternately, gimei were added because a dealer or owner wanted to increase the value of the sword and can be seen as a defacement to an otherwise legitimate piece. I am very conservative about this kind of thing, but feel that a gimei should be removed when it a clear case of deception.

 

People who want to remove a signature always do it because they think they can't sell it or getting more money out of it and not to preserve the sword.

[Guido]

Quoting myself from an earlier thread:

... I agree with Reinhard that newbies shouldn't be told "it's o.k." to collect Gimei, and - what we also hear often on NMB - that the fake signature "is part of the sword's history". It's not o.k. to keep a rotting tooth because it's part of my body's history, I'll have a root canal instead, thank you very much. It's not o.k. if someone fakes my signature on a check, I'll have it cancelled, even if it's only a small amount, instead of accepting it as part of my financial history. No one in his right mind would buy a cheap painting of a bugeling elk that is signed Rembrandt and call it a collectible, so why should it be different when it comes to Japanese swords? ...

[cabowen]

No one in his right mind would buy a cheap painting of a bugeling elk that is signed Rembrandt and call it a collectible, so why should it be different when it comes to Japanese swords? ...

 

I would agree with all the above but I think it bears mentioning that not all gimei signatures are on blades that are the equivalent of the "cheap painting of a bugeling elk"....

[Guido]

I would agree with all the above but I think it bears mentioning that not all gimei signatures are on blades that are the equivalent of the "cheap painting of a bugeling elk"....

O.k., I got a better example:

Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Fake Rembrandt Sold at Sotheby's Auction for Record Price

 

A Saudi prince was quite upset after he learned that a painting he had won at auction for a record bid of 88 million dollars (U.S.) might not be an original. The oil in question, a signed Rembrandt entitled "Not Prince", was acquired by Sotheby's from an unknown party in Los Olivos California. A major art dealer in London contacted the Saudi buyer immediately after the auction to inform him that the original was hanging in the Tate Gallery.

 

Sotheby's Auction president, Guy La Foutre, refused to comment on the apparent forgery but admitted later that he had his brother-in-law look at it last week "...and he thought it was fine."

[Jean]

Guido,

 

You are too much

[runagmc]

To say a gimei sword isn't worth collecting is an over simplification, like Chris said. Don't we always say the quality of the craftmanship is whats most important?

 

I guess Guido's saying a poor quality sword with a big name on the nakago isn't worth collecting, which is a fair statement for the most part.

 

I think it's a persons personal preference to remove a gimei or not, but to keep one on a blade because it's 'part of the swords history' doesn't make much sense, to me at least.

 

This is slightly off topic, but I would point out that I think it's a good idea for new collectors to start with lower quality Nihonto until they feel comfortable with taking care of them. Alot of times I see people telling newbies that they should buy the best quality sword they can afford. That doesn't make much sense to me. Newbies should make their mistakes on lower end blades & not high end ones in my opinion. When I say lower quality I don't mean unpolished ebay junk, I mean lower quality Nihonto in good polish.

 

My 2 cents.

[cabowen]

 

I think it's a persons personal preference to remove a gimei or not, but to keep one on a blade because it's 'part of the swords history' doesn't make much sense, to me at least.

 

Makes little sense to me either...The artifact argument....By that logic, one should never polish a blade either because its condition is part of its history....

[AlexiG]

 

On 9/3/2011 at 11:13 AM, Brian said:

Dr Bleed had some interesting info here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8998&p=74626

 

Brian

Based on the Kunikane conversation above, we should not trust Gen 4-10 Kunikane signatures. Am I getting this right?

Here is an affordable Kunikane example with a NTHK-Kantei paper that might be Gen4 or 5 based on the Info n Nihontoclub.com

https://www.toukenko...&katana_A030522.html

Signed "奥州仙台住國包"

 

What are your thoughts? Gimei?

[Jon]

On 9/11/2011 at 1:36 PM, cabowen said:

By that logic, one should never polish a blade either because its condition is part of its history....

You have to remember that only Japanese swords are polished to the extent that significant levels of metal are removed…we do not treat European swords like that….there is a very specific reason for this and that is to study the character of the steel... In reality a gimie is not a fake, it’s simply an authentic artefact that at some point in its history someone has added a signature to…..this has been ongoing with Nihonto since the koto period…in reality this is a part of the story of Nihonto ( and this is going to rub a few people up the wrong way, but I’m an historian first) removing these signatures ( that are essentially a part of the Japanese culture..even if they don’t really like it much) is an act of cultural vandalism….yes it would be lovely for the present collectors of Nihonto if every Gimie signature was scrubbed from every Nihonto…..but at what loss….if every signature was valid then a vast array of study and knowledge becomes simply pointless…a significant part of the history of Nihonto is removed…the only issue I really have is the shadow of false papers as that was essentially fraud and still is ( the papers hold no historic value and tell no story). 
 

as an aside one of my other passions is numismatic study ( as the history of currency is interesting) and one of the things you see is a lot of historic fakes…I’m not taking about something made in china…but a fake made when the coin was in circulation….we don’t destroy these we collect them and study them as part of the history of currencies…a great example is the 1883 racketeer nickel…these were liberty head nickels that were gold plated by a guy called josh Tatum…the first few million of the 1883 nickel was struck without the worlds five cents..and it look like the $5 gold coin…so Tatum gold plated them …walked into a shop purchased something for 5 cents and handed over the coin…he never asked for change…he just got change given..in the end he was tried but found innocent….it’s not a crime to make a coin pretty..he never said  it a 5 dollar coin he just used valid 5 cent coin and purchased a 5 cent item……he was then handed change ……..now  there are lots of gold plated 1883 five cents about which ones are a contemporary Tatum fake ?…….I’ve got lots of fakes in my collection including some great fake 1830s shillings from 1830….

 

This value of the fake does move into the art world…one of the most famous forgers of art work…the teenage Michelangelo got his start as an artist in the 15 century faking antiquities to sell to renaissance collectors…..they started off costing a lot as very ancient works of art…..became worthless michalengelo knock offs and then became valuable as they were recognised as an authentic Michelangelo knock off of an ancient work of art. Imagine someone destroying or damaging a michalengelo…..what happens if one day the very creation of Mei or Gimie becomes appreciated….as an artfully created fake signature and the 20c destroyers of these signatures are cursed for cultural vandalism.

History is easily destroyed and impossible to rebuild…art is fashion….things go in and out of fashion….never destroy history…even if it’s the history of fakery….just be honest about what it is…….respect the history and consider what that koto or EDO period faker of mie was doing….it’s history… don’t remove something from history that was carefully created by a human being many hundreds of years ago for a specific purpose…even if that purpose was a bit suspect.

 

 

[Bazza]

This is one of the most interesting necro-posts I have read.  I have always been interested in the Psychology of Collecting, but never got really deeply into the topic - my love of Nihontou kept that at bay!  However, from a long, long time ago in my reading I remember this comment "collectors decide their own categories", so I googled it.  Do so google it yourself and have a delve into yet another topic we can tear ourselves to pieces on...

 

BaZZa.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Bazza
irrelevant text deleted 31 August.

[Bazza]

If I could hop in here again, being aware of some of the problems with KUNIKANE blades (from this very thread plus a pink from one in the hand!) I found it very useful to revisit this thread from the very beginning.  Thanks, Jon, for reviving this important subject.

 

BaZZa.

[WillFalstaff]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:32 AM, Bazza said:

This is one of the most interesting necro-posts I have read.  I have always been interested in the Psychology of Collecting, but never got really deeply into the topic - my love of Nihontou kept that at bay!  However, from a long, long time ago in my reading I remember this comment "collectors decide their own categories", so I googled it.  Do so google it yourself and have a delve into yet another topic we can tear ourselves to pieces on...

 

BaZZa.

 

HAHAHA!

 

Totally just realized this is a necro-post! Fun read!

[Jon]

Can I just point out it was not me that resurrected it…it was all Alexi’s fault not mine….I did not even notice the dates on the posts…being old and a bit….well….oblivious.

[Bazza]

Jon,

As you can see, it's a 'becoming' big club...  Nonetheless, it's one of those topics that are evergreen and deserve the occasional airing for folk who are new or older folk who welcome the re-reading.

BaZZa.