Brian Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 All aboard those who want to ride the dead horse train....! Last chance. Doors are closing soon and will be locked shortly. Last chance to make your pointless...! All aboard! Brian
Sergio Bastos Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Why do people take everything as a personal attack!! I'm subscribed to this message board for more than six years, every day I come here and always find some interesting posts! and believe me I've learned a lot!!! but I don´t need to be informed about the age of the "BALLS" You can do what you please with your swords! choosing a polisher more competent or not, if the swords are well preserved, I realy don´t care! and I think most of swords don´t need a mukansa polish...I think! Sergio
cabowen Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 I could understand if you'd say that you don't want to spend that much money, but why on earth do upper quality swords not *appeal* to you? Glad I am not the only one who thought it was a curious statement....out of left field, off topic, and irrelevant to the discussion...Oh, well, about par for the course, considering where this thread has traveled. It would seem that Louis has preferred to advertise his work here rather than answer relevant questions about it; that is unfortunate. I think Guido and others who know what they are looking at have made all the comments necessary. I agree with what Clive has stated- his usual calm, voice of reason is always appreciated. I agree that there is a place for the amateur polisher, the issue is always whether or not the amateur knows where his place is... I think the fact that those that have spent time with professional craftsman and studied in Japan with authorities all seem to share the same viewpoint bears notice. Again, either you understand what makes for a skilled polish or you don't. If you don't, then by all means save yourself the time and money and use an amateur..... Lastly, I want to repeat my earlier comment that I have nothing against any of these amateurs personally. I know many of them and some I consider friends. I am sure Louis is indeed a good person. Obviously I am passionate about the proper preservation of nihon-to andI simply believe they are best preserved by those with the proper training. 1
Brian Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 We seem to be rehashing the same stuff over and over. If anyone thinks they have something relevant to add, they can pm me. There were a couple of low-blows taken today...some of you guys disappointed me. Brian
Brian Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 The following was sent to me by Clive Sinclair, which I thought worthy of adding: After some consideration of this discussion, which I think touches upon some of the basic questions concerning the preservation of Japanese swords, the following occurred to me. I have known a few polishers who have not been traditionally trained but who consider their work to be of an competent level. I have suggested that they should consider entering their work into the NBSK annual craftsmen competition which will at least recognise that their work is genuinely of an acceptable standard. I have been answered that they will not do this as, not being Japanese, their work will be rejected, thereby inferring some discrimination. Of course, we are fully aware that this is not the case as Western craftsmen have been recognised in the fields of tsuba making, habaki making and tsukamaki but, as far as I am aware, nobody has entered into the polishing competition. It seems to me that anyone accredited by the NBSK can justifiably call themselves competent. Indeed, such an accreditation might even improve their businesses and so I see of no reason why they should not tender an entry. Going to open this thread briefly for replies and added comments, but anything personal will be immediately deleted, and action taken against the poster. Brian
Guido Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 You're making a very good point, Clive (now you've earned those pints of beer you were talking about ealier ). However, in the past even some well-known, quite qualified Japanese polishers didn't enter blades into the NBTHK competition for "political" reasons. The NBSK seems to go exactly the other way, i.e. being p/c to a point where it hurts - as is evident by the Nyûsen (or their equivalent) a Tsuba got this year that was very crudely executed, just because it was made by a non-Japanese (at least that's what I suspect, at this point I really don't want to open another can of worms!). Anyhow, not withstanding the cases of swords messed up by a Mukansa polisher, and fine polishes by rank-and filers, or the sub-standard Japanese and great foreign polish - or the other way around - that many of us who have been around long enough have seen: it all boils down to the ability to recognize a good polish, detached from prizes or certificates (or the lack thereof). I probably sound like a broken record, but if one can't judge confidently the quality of a polish, everything we talked about so far is moot.
drbvac Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Two good and final points gentlemen; It seems there are some topics that always end up this way , gimei, gendaito steels, stamps, polishers and we all probably should know by now they will always be points of contention and debate and I for one in the spirit of the board wont bring them up again especially for some new member who falls into one
loui Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 I had contacted the NBSK (Kenji Mishina at the time) last September and asked if it were possible to enter a blade in the competition for the very same reasons that Clive had mentioned, the response (of course I can't find the email now and maybe Kenji Mishina might chime in here) was something like - At this time we will not accept swords from polishers outside of Japan for the polishing competition, it is being looked in to - not verbatim but something like that. I will send another email as it has been almost a year and maybe something has changed. The hesitation of some of Clive's polishing acquaintances is understood but I am confident that the NBSK would make the "proper" decisions in the competition. Of course there would be skepticism if a western non-trained polisher did rank in the competition but there will always be that factor for many reasons, personal, bias, business related etc. I would enter a blade in the competition as soon as it were open polishers outside of Japan, if it didn't rank I would continue to enter the competition every year, competition is a good thing for the soul whether it be physical or mental but it is evident that no matter the outcome the work and rank may not be respected as we can see in a previous post. I am glad that Brian opened this back up as a couple of questions were left unanswered, namely that I had not answered Chris questions and I had done so purposely as no matter what answer I give it will surely not be the correct one (in Chris's opinion as I believe at this point he is incapable of making an unbiased and non-judgmental opinion on my work, Brian I'm not attacking but in my defence there is a pattern here), and if Chris had read the previous comments he would have seen that I had polished that sword many years ago and in the early phase of my polishing career, and I'll add that yes to answer Guidos query that the angle of the photo does throw off the kissaki, and please by all means judge an old work but remember that it is an old work and one of many. If one wants to pick apart someones work do we pick the best or the worst, do we pick his first works or his most recent works, do we pick a poor quality sword or a top quality sword, a sword polished for someone with a very low budget and the polisher helped the individual out with an otherwise to costly restoration somewhere else.....and the list goes on but I suspect a sword submitted for competition would satisfy that question right?. I could show you polishes that I would be ashamed of and I have told the customer to not tell anyone I had done the work, this is because I had helped the customer out with his sword, polished it on a budget as they don't have enough money to pay for a higher value polish (by me), or because the sword was written off by "fully trained polishers", quite frankly the swords don't warrant a complete, very time consuming and costly polish, some may argue that every sword deserves the best polish but that might come from a sword broker or less than honest polisher. No matter what though I'll never be able to make everyone happy, there will never be an unbiased critique of my work and in the end I'll continue and endeavor to produce the best result I possibly can to be judged by competent polishers, not people who "know a good polish", my peers are polishers but I do respect constructive criticism from knowledgeable collectors. At a sword show in Chicago a few years ago I had a collector come to me and show me a sword, he was very excited as it was a sword in fresh polish and new shirasaya, he was wide eyed and very happy with his purchase, he removed it from the saya and said I love this sword and it was polished by! "........." it was a horrible polish and it was hard to maintain a smile through my clenched teeth, but it was also evident that the sword was very old and tired and that it simply did not warrant a top of the line polish, it was what it was. I did not judge his work based on that polish. If a customer or client has questions about my work then I am more than happy to answer them as I have been doing so since this topic was brought up, these topics usually bring in many inquiries and ultimitely more work which is not what I need or want at this time - I am overloaded and don't like the pressure of having too many swords on the wall. I won't answer questions about my polishing on here as we know where that leads and I am trying to keep to the high road on this one as the topic deserves it. I'll post the video that was mentioned in the very first post of this thread along with other sword related videos as I make them (before and after work, interesting works etc), and I'll post the response from the NBSK if and when I receive one. Again thank you for re-opeing this topic. If something I have said is construed as an insult or "bait" then please accept my apology as that is not my intention. Regards, Louis
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 I had contacted the NBSK (Kenji Mishina at the time) last September and asked if it were possible to enter a blade in the competition for the very same reasons that Clive had mentioned, the response (of course I can't find the email now and maybe Kenji Mishina might chime in here) was something like - At this time we will not accept swords from polishers outside of Japan for the polishing competition, it is being looked in to - not verbatim but something like that. I will send another email as it has been almost a year and maybe something has changed. I suspect this is largely due to the amount of time and trouble involved with importing and exporting, rather than any sort of bias or discrimination. I am glad that Brian opened this back up as a couple of questions were left unanswered, namely that I had not answered Chris questions and I had done so purposely as no matter what answer I give it will surely not be the correct one (in Chris's opinion as I believe at this point he is incapable of making an unbiased and non-judgmental opinion on my work, I asked you two questions: one was why you repolished the blade in kesho instead of sashi-komi. There is no correct answer to this for me to disagree with. The second question was whether or not the naginata was signed. That is a yes or no question, again, not something that can be argued. I am not looking for an argument, just clarification. I have just posted notification of a polishing exhibit offer for our upcoming show and shinsa wherein the head of the NTHK will critique each blade submitted. Feel free to submit your blade and have it judged by an expert. The judging will be done blind and I will have no role in the comments made.... By the way, I would like nothing better than to have more skilled polishers in the West. I can understand why you have the opinion that I am biased against you but I assure you I am a bigger person that you give me credit for and the first self-trained polisher who is on par with professional standards from Japan will get my business and wholehearted endorsement. I had polished that sword many years ago and in the early phase of my polishing career, and I'll add that yes to answer Guidos query that the angle of the photo does throw off the kissaki, and please by all means judge an old work but remember that it is an old work and one of many. That is a big part of the issue. How many swords are damaged during the learning process? In Japan, the student is directly supervised and only does a small part of the job, until it is mastered and the next step tackled. Self taught polishers basically learn and practice on other people's swords, in most cases, without any supervision. Mistakes are permanent and damage in many cases irrepairable. Every self taught polisher I have talked to, and there have been many, always tells me the same thing when I look at a blade they have polished- "I have gotten better since I did that blade." Hopefully they have, but the damage is done...In Japan, the student doesn't graduate until his work is at a consistently high level that satisfies his teacher. There is no trail of damaged swords in his wake.....This is a crucial reason why polishing is not something you pick up on your own, or with only very limited training. Hopefully this has not come across as argumentative as that is not my intent.
loui Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Chris, not sure about the importing and exporting end but that could be a factor, I would use a broker if I had to, would be easy enough. The naginata was an obscure smith with no record that I could find (Kane...)iirc but I'd have to check my notes. The blades was finished with keisho as it was determined at the time to be the best finish for that blade. I'd prefer to submit to the NBSK if it ever opens up, a personal preference but perhaps I may change my mind, no insult to the head of the NTHK_NPO of course. I see your point about learning and damage done to blades in the process and agree with it, guaranteed there are many swords damaged by amateur polishers. Louis
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Chris, not sure about the importing and exporting end but that could be a factor, I would use a broker if I had to, would be easy enough. I would mention that if you should make any further inquiries.... The naginata was an obscure smith with no record that I could find (Kane...)iirc but I'd have to check my notes. The blades was finished with keisho as it was determined at the time to be the best finish for that blade. I asked because it looked to me shinto, rather than shinshinto, but it is of no matter..... The blades was finished with keisho as it was determined at the time to be the best finish for that blade. I would have assumed that...can you shed some light on how that determination was made, or reached? I'd prefer to submit to the NBSK if it ever opens up, a personal preference but perhaps I may change my mind, no insult to the head of the NTHK_NPO of course. The door is open should you wish to have your work critiqued by experts in the clear light of day. A rare opportunity and a chance for validation....No insult taken.....
Brian Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 A fellow member sent this out of interest: In the nbthk magazine 636, a list of togishi and the name of an italian togishi, not rejected by Japanese ......... So it's possible for a gaijin to be a togishi and be awarded by them.. http://images.imagehotel.net/?akz09aakvm.jpg
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Apparently he has entered twice and was given the Nyusen, which is awarded to those who don't win a higher prize. This makes for interesting reading....seems he too is no stranger to controversy... http://www.token-tosogu.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=118
takakage Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Hi, You can meet him to http://www.intk-token.it/forum/index.ph ... tion=login and a post about him in our french forum. http://token.alldiscussion.net/t1333-un ... elle#10883 and often atari on the monthly nbthk kantei. from nbthk 636 magazine
Bazza Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 I think this has ended quietly and decently, as indeed it should. Having been on these many and varied electronic/internet forums since 1995 I have assiduously recorded in great detail and at great length (dozens of pages, hundreds of megabytes) numerous discussions on the subject of this thread as well as hundreds of others. I did it in this instance as I very early on realised the central importance of correct polish for the restoration and preservation of Nihonto and for my own education went out of my way to compile these electronic discourses for posterity, as I knew the opinions expressed would never be written up anywhere else. This thread has been little different to those I've recorded over the last 17 years in terms of the pros and cons. For my personal journey I have in the meantime had numerous of my own blades polished by different sources and have bought blades already polished. The worst, most abysmal polish (seen in another collection here in Oz) was by a little-known American. The second worst was on a (later) Tokubetsu Hozon wakizashi from a Japanese source. My experience has been wide and varied at a personal level and it has taught me much and I do my best to share it with my fellow Aussie collectors on a one-to-one basis. Now, to put it on the record - I take my hat off to Chris Bowen and in terms of this thread I sit firmly in his camp, as it were. His vast experience on the ground in Japan and his interactions with artisans across board at all levels of Nihonto and restoration skills over many years are unparallelled and undeniable. I have assiduously recorded Chris' writings since his earliest days as an internet presence with his token_kenkyu_kai discussion list and as a person who has never been to Japan and am unlikely to do so for varied reasons, have devoured his personal experiences with all manner of artisans. For those who have never experienced Chris' earlier personal recollections moving amongst the artisans of Japan I want to record here how grateful I was for the tremendous commitment of his time to convey these to Westerners. This commitment is still evident to me in his large presence here to inform and enlighten all of us sharing this passion. In the same breath, I take my hat off to Brian for his Solomonesque wisdom in keeping us under firm control and for a similarly Herculean task in administering NMB. Finally, I have particularly enjoyed this thread, even if it amounted to a same-same update of earlier discourses... Best regards to all, Barry Thomas (aka BaZZa).
Stephen Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 Louie i think thats a great idea, why not bring a blade to show? i know id really like to see you there maybe Ron and Dr B as well, Known Chris and Louis for years both fine people nothing like a nice sit down face to face to clear the air. What say ye?
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 and often atari on the monthly nbthk kantei. Patrick, Jacques is better than Rossi at paper kantei, but doesn't mean Jacques is a good polisher... Rossi is the Chairman of INTK, a very close friend of Yoshindo Yoshihara and Leon Kapp. The link provided by Chris shows a JoJosaku sword polished by him. Judge by yourself. BTW, as far as Atari goes... in the close past he has clamed (and still do...) to have polished an unrecorded, genuine Masamune (*That* Masamune) even posting pictures on the board you've linked. it all boils down to the ability to recognize a good polish, detached from prizes or certificates (or the lack thereof). Dixit...
Lorenzo Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 Ditto on what Guido says and on Carlo last post. I'm afraid no nyuusen can really add value or "professionalism" to someone job.
Brian Posted August 22, 2011 Report Posted August 22, 2011 And on that note, I am closing the thread yet again. I don't think more can be added, and there is certainly enough food for thought. People can make up their own minds from here on. Brian
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