David Flynn Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 I sent a sword to Japan through and agent. The sword was by a Gendai Mukansa smith and was published. When it returned, I was beside myself with grief, the polish was terrible and there was a dip in middle of the blade (Quite large and noticeable). I quickly notified the agent (who said he could not see the problem) and asked it be returned to the polisher and corrected. When the sword was returned the second time, the polish was much better, except the dip was even more noticeable. I consider this sword ruined and it was by a "professional" Japanese polisher. I will not use this agent or polisher again. 1
sencho Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 by a "professional" Japanese polisher. I will not use this agent or polisher again. Who? Cheers
David Flynn Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Can't say who polished it, as well as name the sword. It has been sold on, as is ( for a substantial loss) and I don't want any repercussions. I only posted to show even professionals, can stuff a sword.
pcfarrar Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 I guess it depends on the agent you use. I've used the Kashima sisters for my polishes and never had a problem. All my swords were polished by Rinzo Negishi and I couldn't be more pleased with the result.
loiner1965 Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 I guess it depends on the agent you use. I've used the Kashima sisters for my polishes and never had a problem. All my swords were polished by Rinzo Negishi and I couldn't be more pleased with the result. the kashima sisters have always been very helpful and quick to reply everytime i asked for advice or answers
David Flynn Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 At the moment, I'm having a sword polished by Francis Boyd in San Francisco. Quite like his work.
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Hi Guys, I'm on Facebook, if anyone wants to join me there feel free at "Louis Skebo". Guido, that blade was a write off by a "professional" polisher, "not worth the money to restore", that's how it ended up with me like so many other "write off's". Wish I had it back though as I'd tune it up a bit, I think I polished that one 7-9 years ago. I'll have to update that restoration section with recent pictures but it is hard to find time and I rarely list anything on my site anymore, everything is usually sold before I need to list it. On pictures, please beware, yes my pictures are kinda crappy, bad lighting, bluish sometimes or whatever, but they are untouched and outside of cropping they have not been altered by photoshop, this cannot be said by some polishers and dealers on their websites, the pictures are edited, lines are sharpened, kissaki's are cleared up and made perfect, jigane is made perfect, suddenly all imperfections and ware are gone in the photos etc, beware that what you see in a picture might not be what you get in your hand. Guys my work isn't perfect, I'm too modest and realistic to claim perfection and I think that no polisher would ever make that claim, a person with a big inflated head would be one to watch in my opinion. Of course there are blades I wish I had back here so I could make subtle changes to for one reason or another, and I'm sure most polishers would feel that way about some of their work from the past. My work has been viewed by polishers in Japan, I have received some good criticisms, and I have been told that my work is "acceptable as a Japanese polish". I listen to constructive criticisms from respected polishers and strive to make a better result as most would do. If I could go back in time to when I was a young lad of 18 or 20 I would most definitely have gone to Japan and studied for years, but hind sight is 20/20 and I'll continue on my journey in the real world. One fortunate luxury I have is time, being a full-time firefighter on a 24 hour schedule that I work 7-8 times a month, the rest of the time is devoted to swords and some of my hobbies as some of you may have seen in my other videos. Thanks for the insightful debate, most if not all has been said before and will be said again, horror stories will be told on both sides and most will do what they feel is right no matter what is said. Bike ride with the kids, 10 year wedding anniversary dinner tonight and back on the swords tomorrow, life is great! EDIT, for a very honest and reputable dealer who offers polishing, shinsa, handling etc services please use the Kashima sisters at USAGIYA as Peter mentioned, here is their website: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ Their views and business practices are a welcome relief from the usual sword world sliminess, truly a pleasure doing business with them and a welcome relief.
drbvac Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 What a great group of retiring reticent non opinionated guys on this board. Not bo-hooing to one of the early posts - called respect - if your comments don't add to the talk why subtract from the tone Ron - must be a Canadian thing ! As with any situation knowing the person doing the work, the fact that he knows you and that you respect each other - often leads to the best outcome. Buyer beware. I sent a blade to Louis yesterday, not to `someone in Japan `` 13000 miles away and me with several thousand in limbo with airlines and customs. I deleted Chris' site from my favourites - 4-10 thousand dollar blades dont appeal to me but to each his own. Nuff said - Henry - Hot and sunny east coast canada - on my way to Devon next month !
cabowen Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 I’m certainly not Chris' best buddy, but there’s not much he wrote so far that I wouldn’t approve of, sign and seal. It’s not about how one defines an amateur – basically we’re getting into semantics there – but about properly trained vs. self-taught “polishers”. Wherever that training took place, it doesn’t necessarily have to be in Japan. Agreed (Perhaps there is hope for us after all!).....and it isn't about being Japanese either. There are a few non-native Japanese polishers who have been properly trained and do an excellent job. It is indeed, all about the training. And that training, as Guido has pointed out, also extends to collectors. The real issue is the experience and ability to judge the quality of a polish. If more had this knowledge, the market for amateurs would greatly contract. Ignorance is indeed bliss and hubris is the rule. No one has really addressed the issue of why they use amateurs, except for one comment from someone in Canada about not wanting to send the blade to someone they don't know thousands of miles away. Perhaps they should have done a little homework as there is a professionally trained polisher in western Canada who does good work....Not sure I follow the logic in any case, e.g., I would rather risk the sword for certain by sending to an amateur than possibly risk it by sending somewhere in Japan....??? I think the one thing we can agree on is that we have a mutual affection for nihon-to. Seems we differ on how we choose to express it.....You either get it or you don't....I like to hope that eventually the light will go on....In any case, if you are satisfied with the work of your amateur polisher, great. After all, isn't that what is really important here? Oh, and Ron, should you ever get too excited and God forbid, start having some serious chest pains, let me know. I know of this really good surgeon I will send over- he never went to medical school (formal training is sooo overrated) but he is great with a knife and needle and thread! He hasn't killed anyone yet and judging by the pictures of his work and the positive feedback (he does a great job on bull castrations), I am sure he will take great care of you!
Jacques D. Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Hi, I'm still stunned by this (seen on Louis Site) : A nice slender and graceful katana with a 28.5 inch cutting edge. The jigane is very beautiful on this blade with utsuri being easily visible. The are some spots of finger prints and some minor pitting which can be removed with a polish, but can easily be enjoyed the way it is. The signature looks like the Nidai Kanemichi (Tango no kami), but I have not sent this to shinsa so I cannot guarentee the signature.
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Jacques keep searching as I'm sure you'll find more on my website that will surely stun you, that was put on there about 12 year ago, OMG! I am sure that 15 years ago I said something that was truly stunning, maybe 20 years ago I am sure I said something offending! I loved polishing this blade, Bizen Osafune Sukenao as papered by the NTHK in 2004.
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 This was done about 6 years ago, shinshinto naginata, very hard steel. Not perfect but a modest improvement.
Brian Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Take it easy guys. I've let this one run way past its due...only for the sake of everyone getting this out of their system. Board policy....swords should only be polished by a professional in line with Japanese standards. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there that do a good job. But it is not the forum's job to start listing exceptions or alternatives. We follow tradition and Japanese standards. Not saying you can't make up your own mind about who to use. Just always bear in mind that there are amateurs out there that will happily wreck a 500 year old sword and not know any better. Louis, Chris, Guido....everyone...will agree with that. So research what you do, and be confident your chosen polisher knows what he is doing. And please folks..no need to get rude about it. That is no way to convince others your views have some merit. Brian
cabowen Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Looks like it was originally done in sashi-komi; from the photo it looks like you refinished it in kesho-why?
mdiddy Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 My only feedback for Louis is that maybe its time to pave the driveway: . :lol: Not to stray too far OT but is that a 40 series cruiser? What year?
watsonmil Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Dear Chris, et All, There now, ... after Louis' posting, ... and the decent photograhs of an AMATEURS polish, ... I think most of you will recognize the truth about just how talented some non-formally trained, non-Japanese Togoshi really are. I rest my argument. Thank you Chris for the offer of a surgeon, ... but my heart is that of an 21 year old, ... and my BALLS are that of an 18 year old ! ... Ron Watson
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Lol, that is some old school footage i found a while back! Check out mt newer cruiser videos, the white one. Yes it was 40 series, nice to see you know your cruisers! Ive owned well over 30 now, maybe 40, i used to import turbodiesel cruisers from Japan.
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Mdiddy, i built this truck from the ground up: Sent from my iPhone
cabowen Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Dear Chris, et All, There now, ... after Louis' posting, ... and the decent photograhs of an AMATEURS polish, ... I think most of you will recognize the truth about just how talented some non-formally trained, non-Japanese Togoshi really are. I rest my argument. Thank you Chris for the offer of a surgeon, ... but my heart is that of an 21 year old, ... and my BALLS are that of an 18 year old ! ... Ron Watson I thought we had previously agreed that you can not accurately judge a polish from a photo, yet here you are heaping praise on work with only a superficial understanding of it. The photos tell nothing about the foundation work or other subtleties that determine the quality of the work....Either you don't understand that or it isn't of any importance to you. Either way, if you are satisfied to declare it a quality job based on two of three dimensions, then there is no debating it further, and thus we can both rest.... Glad to hear you are in good health and will not be needing that surgeon!
Clive Sinclaire Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Gentlemen, gentlemen How interesting the wide range of opinions on this subject which is fundamental to the understanding, appreciation and by implication, the collecting of Japanese swords. It is important to understand what makes a good polish and to recognise it when you encounter it. I agree with Chris that the best polishers in Japan produce incredible work that sympathetically enhances the characteristics in the sword put there by the swordsmith, and their understanding of kantei is the basis for this. It is unfortunate that there is little training or practice of kantei in the west as this is a great learning tool. I have used several polishers in Japan and I both trust them and know they are reliable. I would not consider having a sword polished and not having a personal relationship with the polisher, although I understand that some send swords via agents in Japan and do not always know who is actually to be employed. It is not true, as has been mentioned, that you will only have student work if you know what you are doing. I guess the main thing that differentiates the amateur polish from the top pro is the subtelty, especially of the hamon, which is often lacking in even the talented amteur. I am also sure that the costs are a major consideration when picking a gaijin amateur polisher. This is an unfortunate reality which may mean some swords do not get the best polish that they deserve. Personally, if I buy a sword that needs a polish, because it is a good sword (why buy anything else? life is too short) then it must have the best possible restoration / polish. It can be no other way for me and, as with the sword that came back from Japan this week, it is unlikely ever to recoup the money that I have laid out on it, but it is now possible to fully appreciate the fine workmanship and I have done my bit in preserving a fine piece of art for generations to come (in spite of Fed Ex's efforts to the contrary!) I am also quite sure that were it not for the better amateur polishers, some of which polish proffesionaly and are therefore not "amateur" stricktly speaking, more "untrained in the traditional manner" (I exclude the crude acid etchers and "commercial polishes") over the last 40 years or so, many swords would not have been preserved and may have been lost forever. From this point of view, there is an important place for such artisans. Regards Clive Sinclaire
drbvac Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Last word to Chris - Brian maybe you could lock this up ! I have to get my Picasso restored at the paint desk at Home Hardware - great job they do
mdiddy Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 FWIW - I would value an amateur polish (or no polish) over that of a professional polish where the intent was to harm the sword for whatever reason (repurchase by the togishi, etc). I realize this subject is not often discussed and the situation is the exception, not the norm, but it does occur given the value of these items. I think my point here is that I value trusting the togishi first over any advertisements, accolades of service, or 'professional'-ism. Getting to know a togishi at a personal level first before imparting to them, or middle-men, $4k worth of work and a valued item seems prudent in my mind. Just my $.02 (1.5 Yen) EDIT - just read Clive's post and I think he sums it up best.
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Clive very well said, perfect points. This has also lowered the prices of blades in my opinion, market flooding/saturation etc.
Sergio Bastos Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Hi All, Reading all the posts, arose in my mind some questions that troubled me! how is possible that a person can learn to polish Japanese swords without orientation of a professional, Japanese or not! and how many swords were destroyed in the process??? best Sergio
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 You are right Sergio, direction from a trained polisher is essential, no proper progress could be attained otherwise in my opinion. Louis
Guido Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 There now, ... after Louis' posting, ... and the decent photograhs of an AMATEURS polish, ... I think most of you will recognize the truth about just how talented some non-formally trained, non-Japanese Togoshi really are.Let me be as blunt as possible (I know that nothing else is expected from me anyhow): Fukura and Koshinogi are not parallel, the placement of the Yokote is off, the Yokote itself not straight, there are coarse scratches from the Narume which also extend over the Koshinogi. Or maybe it just looks like that because of the camera angle, lighting or whatever, I don't know. But since those details clearly *appear* to be off (real or not), how can it be an example of exceptionally talented work? *That's* what I was getting at by posting the photo.
loui Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 For those who are interested please feel free to subscribe to my youtube channel as well, the video will be posted up next week. Regards, Louis
Guido Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 4-10 thousand dollar blades dont appeal to me but to each his own.What an interesting statement. I could understand if you'd say that you don't want to spend that much money, but why on earth do upper quality swords not *appeal* to you?
watsonmil Posted August 20, 2011 Report Posted August 20, 2011 Dear Guido, Perhaps Brian considers $ 25,000 - $ 100,000.00 swords upper quality ? Still an interesting statement. ... Ron Watson
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