Katana polish

[Henry Stewart]

Gentlemen

 

May I respectfully commend your attention to Mr Louis Skebo polishing a Katana on You Tube.

I have owned an example of this mans work and he is good in my humble opinion.

In his offering it is possible for the new people to our pastime to see the importance placed on various stages of the swords progressiion and observe why we of the collecting fraternity place so much emphasis on proprer care.

 

Henry

[drbvac]

Agreed - he is not only good - he respects the tradition and the art and he taaaakes his time. He has touched up a couple of blades of mine and hadori or old style - all look great

 

He is a firefighter in a major city in Canada and puts his ass on the line every day for folks he doesnt even know - good guy

 

I am not sure if Henry is talking about the latest video as I believe it may be for the Canadian War Museum blade he did pro-bono and will be part of the final display. It is quite something and maybe Louis will share it as well.

[cabowen]

Agreed - he is not only good - he respects the tradition and the art...

 

 

I don't wish to be argumentative but it seems to me that if someone respected the tradition and art they wouldn't be polishing nihon-to without the proper professional training.

[loui]

Henry thank you very much for your kind words as they are truly appreciated, Drbvac thank you as well as you are a true friend.

 

EDITED, As per Drbvac's sound advice I'll retract my comments, sometimes I should pause before hitting the "submit" button. I need some sleep.

 

Regards and all the best, even to you Chris.

 

Louis Skebo

 

PS, I had removed the video from youtube yesterday as I am working on setting it up on several other sites as well, it will be back up next week if all goes as planned. The sword has some incredible history for Canada and is a beautiful piece, please check it out if you like.

[cabowen]

I have never said, "don't use an amateur, let me send the blade to Japan". I have simply said "use a professional". I couldn't care less if people request my services or use someone else- what matters most to me, and to all lovers of nihon-to, is that the blades are polished professionally.

 

While it is true that I do indeed offer to send blades to Japan for polishing, it is a service that was motivated more by the abundance of amateur, self-anointed "polishers" and the damage I have seen done than by any financial windfalls 77 yen to the dollar might generate....Knowing that I am helping to get the blades the care they deserve while helping the traditional craftsman in Japan during this recession is payment well beyond the rather paltry financial rewards it generates.

 

I am hardly the only one here who has advised people to stay away from amateurs. Surely not everyone in the chorus has a financial stake in their opinion.

[drbvac]

I am not getting into this other than quoting my dear departed grandma who said - "If you have nothing good to say don't bother saying anything" .

 

Henry's comment was his opinion as was mine and I must say if I had not seen the video or thought contrary I probably wouldn't even have said anything. Louis does have a business but I have never seen or heard him push either himself or his polishing on the Board.

 

Praise for individuals is not often an invitation to a debate - its peoples opinions who are entitled to same - if I happened to disagree about a person unless specifically asked what I thought I wouldn't say anything.

 

Louis work is fine - my opinion.

[loui]

Drbvac, cooler heads prevail and I heed your sound advice, I edited my previous comments directed at Chris.

 

Have a good night!

 

Louis

[watsonmil]

Dear Chris, and Louis,

First to Chris, .... I have seen some of Louis's work and I would rate it as good as MOST all of the Japanese Polishers. That my friend is after 40 + years collecting Nihonto. This bull about only the Japanese or Japanese trained polishers being capable of turning out an EXCELLENT polish is just so much crap. Indeed I have seen so called Professional Japanese Polishes that leave a hell of a lot to be desired.

There are at least two excellent Sword Polishers in Canada and neither received formal Japanese apprenticeships. In fact one sword I submitted to Shinsa was considered so good ( the polish included ) that Kotoken Kajihara shook the Polishers hand and congratulated him on a job well done. A question for you Chris, ... HAVE YOU examined a sword polished by Louis ? If not then how the hell can you make ANY type of judgement ( but for the brainwashing you have received gratis no doubt from the JSSUS ) ??

 

Secondly to Louis,

I have a very nice Yari in need of a polish, ... let me know when to send it. Your work from what I have seen is most certainly on a par with the Japanese Polishes I have seen, ... and I have examined many !

... Ron Watson

 

PS: Louis you should not have edited your post, ... to hell with those who critisize your abilities. Keep up the good work !

[sencho]

"If you have nothing good to say don't bother saying anything" .

 

Henry's comment was his opinion as was mine and I must say if I had not seen the video or thought contrary I probably wouldn't even have said anything.

 

Whether you personally agree or disagree, or your feelings are hurt (boo-hoo!), it really doesn't matter... Chris's point is a good and entirely valid one, and should be taken more objectively that as a personal attack.

 

Until someone comes back with a post that is convincing, I agree with Chris. However his post has yet to be responded to in any kind of intelligent manner that tries to counter his argument.

 

"He hurt my feelings!", really doesn't wash!

 

Cheers.

[cabowen]

This board is here to educate people and in my opinion those with experience have an obligation to point out the simply truth that nihon-to should only be polished by properly trained professionals every time someone recommends, either directly or indirectly, an amateur.

 

I have no doubt that Louis is in all likelihood an outstanding human being. I apologize if my comments gave the impression that I am attacking him personally.

[watsonmil]

Dear All,

I make an apology when an apology is in order and take it from an old timer, ... there are some WONDERFUL as Chris derogatorily calls them " AMATEUR polishers ". I stand by my post with no apologies UNTIL " someone comes back with a post that is convincing ".

... Ron Watson

 

PS: Henry, thank you for the YouTube link, ... I for one enjoyed it !

[loui]

Hi Ron, I've purposely not been taking any work on so I can clear out a backlog of work that I have here, I'll be able to take the yari soon so feel free to contact me. I still have 10 or more blades of my own to finish up including a beautiful Jumonji yari that I have almost ready for the Saya-shi, have some blades coming in from Japan for polish as well, damn these things pile up. I'll probably only take 2-3 blades in at a time from now on as I hate swords on the wall. Ron I also suspect that if Chris examined one of my polishes he would find much wrong with it:)

 

Chris, when expressing opinions based on experience you have to make sure the opinions are unbiased and not self serving, those are the opinions I and most others respect, opinions to put food on the table - not so much. I don't peddle my work on here often, I maybe list 1-2 swords a year if that (while making subtle donations to the board fund), maybe comment on a sword or two because some professed "experts" have condemned a sword based on nonsense. Your comments are not offending because I see clearly what you are doing, no boo hooing here, but your business tactics are pretty sad actually, maybe pathetic, but I have no doubt you are probably a very nice person.

 

Don't get me wrong though I do agree with Chris's comments on most "amateur" polishers, they make a mess of blades and I usually end up having to fix Nihon-to that have been acid etched, mis-shaped etc. some are too far gone to be saved. I've also had blades freshly polished by "fully trained polishers" in Japan sent to me by dealers to be re-polished after a very expensive restoration, quite a joke really so be wary of who you send your blades to in Japan, if convinced you need to send your blades to Japan I can recommend a very honest and reputable dealer there that will handle the transaction - and not at inflated prices, polished by the actual polisher not a student like what is so often done:) Not is all as it seems. (anyone interested please PM me). A "fully trained polisher" once said to me while working with him "the apprenticeship system is Japan is rediculous and antiquated, it does not take 6,8, 10 years for you to learn how to polish a sword, but maybe for some it takes longer", he convinced me to continue polishing and I have a great relationship with him and other polishers to this day - I probably bother them too often though:)

 

I should update my site.

[cabowen]

I have seen the work of too many polishers in Japan to count, on literally thousands of blades. I have also seen the work of most of the amateurs outside of Japan. How many have you seen Ron? How much time have you spent with professional polishers and smiths, discussing their work, the finer details, why they polished one blade one way, another differently, with examples in hand? Why one polish is better technically, why another is better artistically? To put it bluntly, what do you really know about the finer points, both technical and artistic, of polishing and how did you come by this knowledge? I have often heard your opinion expressed, nearly always by people who in truth, had a lack of significant experience under the wing of trained professional craftsman.

 

A professional is trained in more than just the mechanical process of polishing-kantei is fundamental to knowing where to start, and how to finish. All polishers in Japan spend countless hours at kantei looking at the best blades under the guidance of experts. How many of the amateurs you know can kantei a blade on the level of a trained professional? Where did they come by this skill? Kantei, or polishing, is not a self taught skill. Without excellent kantei skills, an amateur is an accident waiting to happen.

 

Many of the stones required to optimally polish a blade are not available to amateurs outside of Japan. They are even hard these days for Japanese to get a hold of....Without the proper equipment, proper results are neigh impossible.

 

Where do amateurs learn how to repair flaws? Again, not something you teach yourself in most cases. The same with repairing horimono, properly reshaping damaged blades, knowing how to remove rust, how to seal deep pits with clear lacquer to stop further corrosion, knowing how much skin steel is most likely there to remove, how to correct bends without cracking the blade, and on and on....

 

There is much much more to polishing a sword than simply making it shiny.

[cabowen]

Your comments are not offending because I see clearly what you are doing, no boo hooing here, but your business tactics are pretty sad actually, maybe pathetic, but I have no doubt you are probably a very nice person.

 

If I had to subsist on the fee for sending a dozen or so blades for people to Japan a year for polishing I would have starved a long time ago....It is much more service than business and as such I hardly have a need for "tactics" of any sort.....If calling out amateur polishers appears to be some sort of self serving money making scam, you couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

Let me put it in more familiar terms: I understand you are a firefighter- do you save life and property just for the money, or is it possible you have a more noble purpose?

[nagamaki - Franco]

While having seen and studied a modest number of polished nihonto over time, more than some, less than others, by comparison, it has been quite enough polished blades to recognize that in general nihonto collections very much reflect the collectors ability and skills not only in their choice of blade quality, but also in their choice of polishers. There's no hiding. Food for thought.

[sanjuro]

Its a complex issue, and not merely the black 'Amateur' and the white 'Professionally trained polisher' deal that has polarised this thread. We move in a tradition based world when we collect nihonto, and it is natural for us to advocate a traditional polisher over an amateur. Indeed I am one that does so. However, there are gifted people out there who can polish a sword correctly and who are not professionally trained. Its a fact of life.

What makes the traditionally trained polisher preferable is the fact that for every gifted amateur out there, there are a hundred butchers who only think they know what they are doing, and are blithely polishing blades to ruination. How in fact can you be sure that your sword has not been given to someone who will ruin it, if that person has no recognised credibility? We defer then, for excellent reasons, to those we know have received the proper traditional training, and the credibility that proper training confers. None of this denies the talent of the few who have mastered the process without formal training.

In real terms, the average collector cannot tell an excellent polish from a marginally bad one. We send our swords to a polisher with the expectation that he will do a good job and accept what he does as being the best possible polish that can be done sometimes with a very tired and difficult blade. As long as it looks better than when we sent it off we will usually assume that the job has been done correctly. At least with a traditionally trained polisher you stand a better than average chance of your expectations being met.

[cabowen]

None of this denies the talent of the few who have mastered the process without formal training.

 

I agree with most of what you have said but wonder, if you accept that kantei is an integral part of the polisher's skill set, how that can be mastered without formal instruction?

[sencho]

However, there are gifted people out there who can polish a sword correctly and who are not professionally trained. Its a fact of life.

 

Hi Keith,

 

How can it possibly be a fact of life...? Being gifted and having an aptitude for something, does not mean you can necessarily do it without aquiring more information.

 

I am (or think I am) a gifted maritime Captain... it is something (probably the only bloody thing!) that I have a natural aptitude for. Could not do it without 10 years of formal training of the rules however.

 

I am sure many people have a natural aptitude for polishing swords, but how can they ever understand the traditional rules of polishing, without some kind of formal training?

 

Or is the polishing of Nihonto a purely subjective craft?

 

Cheers.

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

Kantei must be an integral part of a polishers skill set. Here is where the difference lies as a gulf between a gifted amateur who has mastered the mechanical aspect of polishing and the professionally trained polisher. The trained polisher knows the school the material and the style of the original sword and works accordingly to bring out all the features of the original blade. By comparison the gifted amateur no matter how gifted, sees only the blade in his hand and knows only what the steel is telling him as he works. He is effectively working with one eye closed. Remember I am also one who advocates the traditionally trained polisher over the amateur, and mostly for this reason. Quite apart from all the other aspects of polishing such as filling, repairs etc. The gifted amateur generally speaking can only restore a level of polish to the surface of the sword. A trained polisher does so much more and he does it armed with far more knowledge, of which kantei is a large part.

My response therefore would be that a gifted amateur has little opportunity or resource to amass the wealth of kantei knowledge that a trained polisher would have.

 

Sencho.

 

I think this probably answers your query too. There is a vast difference between polishing the sword at a mechanical level and polishing it to the highest possible achievable and appropriate standard. I was acknowledging the ability of amateur polishers to achieve an acceptable level of polish, not necessarily to do it as well as it could be done by a trained polisher.

[watsonmil]

Dear Chris,

The question I asked was have you in hand examined a sword polished by Louis, .... YES or NO ? Have you examined a blade polished by Doug Blain, .... YES or NO ? Well my friend if you think you are going to get the TOP NOTCH Japanese Polisher working on your particular blade, ... you are naive. It will unless it is a VERY IMPORTANT sword be polished by a STUDENT not the MASTER ! In other words an AMATEUR. The ONLY thing you will be happy with is the fact that the Togoshi happens to be Japanese, ... after all it's their inherient right to rub stones on nihonto no matter what the outcome looks like. Yes, Chris I've seen beautiful polishes done in Japan, ... but I've also seen some of the worst looking messes imaginable. I have also seen ( on this forum ) some God awful polishes by non - Japanese polishers. You however promote ONLY the Japanese are capable of a good polish, ... and I respond with that is a load of rubbish. There are polishers here and in Europe ( although I do not know any personally in Europe ) that can do superb work. It is a matter of examining their respective works to decide upon whom you are going to intrust the job to.

I have posted numerous blades on this forum, ... and agreed before you jump on it, .... photos are not the same as in hand examination, ... but never-the-less, ... no one has criticized the POLISH, ... and ALL were done by non-Japanese Polishers, ... and many have been examined by bigger dealer/collectors than you and deemed beautiful. Go ahead and spread your bias for " Japanese Polishers ONLY ", ... there are some of us at least who have the years of experience to know better. There's an old saying that: " if a lie is told often enough it becomes the truth ".

... Ron Watson

[loui]

I love my stones, stones can still be had if you know the right people, one of my stones, a 5 pound koma nagura is on the mantle, it is a natural piece of art, I have a 22 pound chu nagura plate that will be mounted on my wall when I get it.

 

Take note though, there are many red herrings, fables and outright lies that are told by various people with interests in the sword world, many are simply fabricated out of greed and to overwhelm the less knowledgeable if you will, many westerners and impressionable collectors sad to say fall for much of these hook line and sinker. Not on all points mentioned of course but some posted within and in other threads from time to time. Makes sense though, the best way to protect ones business is to baffle with BS, many polishing secrets are kept, some made up to baffle, false secrets revealed, videos made with red herrings to throw people off, messengers in the west to throw people off etc., it is a very interesting business, and make no bones about it swords, polishing and papering is a big business.

 

Some of my stones.

 

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[cabowen]

=.....He is effectively working with one eye closed....

 

 

There is a vast difference between polishing the sword at a mechanical level and polishing it to the highest possible achievable and appropriate standard. I was acknowledging the ability of amateur polishers to achieve an acceptable level of polish, not necessarily to do it as well as it could be done by a trained polisher.

 

The fact is choosing a polisher is just that, a choice. If you are truly concerned with preserving nihon-to, then it is an obligation to make the best choice. That choice should not be someone working with one eye closed, or someone who can not do it as well as a trained polisher. Let's be honest, the main reason people choose amateur polishers is because they don't want to spend the money on a professional and in most cases they don't understand the difference between a good polish and a mediocre one. Only so many polishes in a sword, I fail to see a single legitimate reason to trust anyone that is not professionally trained to restore a collectible Japanese sword.....

 

Not all swords are worth a professional polish, true. I would then have to ask why would anyone want to collect a sword that isn't worth a professional's time and money? Or waste any money on an amateur polish on a mediocre blade?

 

Kantei has always been part and parcel of the polisher's art. It is something that those outside of Japan will always come up short, and thus, as I said, makes amateurs accidents waiting to happen...

[cabowen]

Dear Chris,

The question I asked was have you in hand examined a sword polished by Louis, .... YES or NO ? Have you examined a blade polished by Doug Blain, .... YES or NO ? Well my friend if you think you are going to get the TOP NOTCH Japanese Polisher working on your particular blade, ... you are naive. It will unless it is a VERY IMPORTANT sword be polished by a STUDENT not the MASTER ! In other words an AMATEUR. The ONLY thing you will be happy with is the fact that the Togoshi happens to be Japanese, ... after all it's their inherient right to rub stones on nihonto no matter what the outcome looks like. Yes, Chris I've seen beautiful polishes done in Japan, ... but I've also seen some of the worst looking messes imaginable. I have also seen ( on this forum ) some God awful polishes by non - Japanese polishers. You however promote ONLY the Japanese are capable of a good polish, ... and I respond with that is a load of rubbish. There are polishers here and in Europe ( although I do not know any personally in Europe ) that can do superb work. It is a matter of examining their respective works to decide upon whom you are going to intrust the job to.

I have posted numerous blades on this forum, ... and agreed before you jump on it, .... photos are not the same as in hand examination, ... but never-the-less, ... no one has criticized the POLISH, ... and ALL were done by non-Japanese Polishers, ... and many have been examined by bigger dealer/collectors than you and deemed beautiful. Go ahead and spread your bias for " Japanese Polishers ONLY ", ... there are some of us at least who have the years of experience to know better. There's an old saying that: " if a lie is told often enough it becomes the truth ".

... Ron Watson

 

Let's just say for sake of argument that your amateurs do a reasonable job. Do you honestly believe that their work is on par with the skilled professionals in Japan? Why not get the best work available? If you tell me your swords are mediocre and don't justify the cost, well, there is no arguing that, but otherwise....

 

Ron, I can see from the above that you really don't have any first hand knowledge or experience with the inner workings of the polishing world in Japan and instead can only offer up tired, second hand generalizations which are simply not true. I lived with these craftsman for 14 years and was in daily contact with them. I know exactly who, when, and where when it comes to the work on my blades....I spent over 5 years traveling Japan, meeting craftsman, watching them work, seeing their work, before I chose the people that work on my things.

 

Yes, there are mediocre polishers in Japan, even amateurs. Even with professional training, not all polishers are national treasures. But a professional will never ruin a blade the way an amateur can....

 

So I take it that kantei skills are not necessary for a polisher?

 

And you are right in that you can not accurately judge a polish, in most cases, from a photo. Maybe that is why no one has said anything bad about the amateur polishes on your blades on this site....as for these bigger dealers/collectors, well, I thought it was experience, not size, that mattered....some people like to tell opinionated collectors with 40 years experience that have it all figured out just what they want to hear....Hmmmm, maybe I need to try that......

[cabowen]

\it is a very interesting business, and make no bones about it swords, polishing and papering is a big business.

 

 

I guess size is relative but it has always been more of a cottage industry than "big business"....

[watsonmil]

Dear Chris,

It's been many years since I attended a Sword Show, ... and you are right I LIKE you am opinionated. I go back to the days of Dean Hartley, ... Cary Condell, .... Kotoken Kajihara. Funny, the swords I showed these men had the opinion that they were of very high quality, and very well preserved. Surely one of these gentlemen would have pointed out my swords having an " amateur polish ". No, ... you go on spreading your " opinion ", that .... ONLY the Japanese are capable of a Professional Polish. It is your opinion, and I have mine. It is when you come down on a non - Japanese trained polisher that irks me without having had the blade in hand for a close examination. And you have the audacity to call me " opinionated ". I think my points are valid. We can disagree and leave it up to the individual collector to decide whom and where they want their swords polished. Neither YOU nor I have a monopoly on experience.

... Ron Watson

[nihonto1001]

Sooo Henry, how is the weather over there?

 

Jon

[Henry Stewart]

Gentlemen;

 

Good gracious me,what on earth happened?

I honestly did think the entry might be of use to some of the newly arrived collectors thirsty for knowledge.

As in all human endeavour there are diamertically opposed views,I was just admiring a skill I do not myself posses. A good acceptable result for the individual payhing the bill is surely one of the best tests of the perenial argment "Amateur or Professional".

 

Henry

[Guido]

I’m certainly not Chris' best buddy, but there’s not much he wrote so far that I wouldn’t approve of, sign and seal. It’s not about how one defines an amateur – basically we’re getting into semantics there – but about properly trained vs. self-taught “polishers”. Wherever that training took place, it doesn’t necessarily have to be in Japan.

 

It’s also about the ability to confidently judge a polish, which takes us at least one notch above the general ability to judge swords. This can only be achieved with guidance by experts, much like Kantei. Also, it’s totally irrelevant if one already collected swords while I was still running around a Christmas tree with a tin drum. The general consensus is usually that a few years of proper training does more good than a lifetime of running around in circles. Stare long enough at your navel, and you’re convinced it’s the center of the world.

 

I have to admit that I never saw up close and personal a polish by Louis. I also agree that it's very hard to judge a polish from pictures. But fortunately there are some high-res pics on Louis' website, so let's have a look at one:

[Henry Stewart]

Jon

 

At the moment bright and sunny,but clouds loom in the forecast for later on.

How do you fare this bright mornng; well I trust and in good health as I fervently hope for otherfs.

Henry

[nihonto1001]

Hi Henry:

 

Cloudy, very cloudy. But, at least in good health, so far as I know. Thanks for asking.

 

Jon