Owari-Seki school?

[Matthew Whittle]

Does anyone have definitive data on when formalized Kenjutsu actually started? It would be fascinating to compare that evolution against the look & feel of Nihonto.

 

This is a subject of debate and unfortunately there is no definitive data. Very roughly speaking, formalised schools (ryu-ha) for using the sword began to develop from around the middle of the Muromachi period (ca 1480). Famous examples of these early kenjutsu ryu include the Chujo-ryu and Katori Shinto-ryu. However, as Rich noted, the real proliferation in kenjutsu ryu really began from the beginning of the Edo period. For an introduction to this topic, it is worth reading the following article: http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss2.html

 

Cheers,

Matthew

[Ken-Hawaii]

Wow! I've never seen a blade as straight as that Tsuneyoshi, Curran! You're right that it "almost" looks like a point-weapon. I wonder what the swordsmith was thinking when he created it? With a relatively small cross-section, I'd be afraid that if another katana hit it, the blade would be cut through. The fact that it's still here centuries later is obvious proof that didn't happen, of course.

 

However, the slight curve that we fencers add to our epees & foils is a completely different animal, as it allows the blade to bend upon contact. I've attended a match where the curve on a foil wasn't quite bent enough, & the opponent was skewered when the blade broke - not a pretty sight, believe me :x . Fencing jackets are definitely not bogu or yoroi. Different sword, different intent...or there would a lot fewer fencers! Kinda' like why kendo was invented: to keep samurai alive while they learned the sword techniques.

 

On comparing blade shapes/sizes/thicknesses evolving with the number & types of ryu/ryuha, has anyone done a comparison on that? I read through Meik's article (& a lot more on that Web-site, as I hadn't visited there in too long), but this question isn't addressed directly.

[Matthew Whittle]

Sorry Ken, I only just noticed from your signature that you study MJER (as do I) and SMR jodo so you are naturally familiar with the background info. On the more specific issue, I have never seen a comparison of the different ryu-ha and the sword sizes/shapes they favour. I am really only familiar with the styles I practice.

 

As an aside, I have read that Musashi's sword (in Shimada Museum) is slightly longer than average and has a very shallow sori. Oh yes, and then there are those folks who do Kage-ryu with their monster swords: http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage2.html

 

Apologies for the interruption - I will return to my lurking and attempts to learn more from you all about nihonto.

 

Cheers,

Matthew

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm more than happy to stick with my 2-4-5 iaito, Matthew, & my 2-5-5 shinken. If I want to hit someone any farther away than that, I'm sure I have some better long-range weapons stuck away somewhere....

 

Musashi Miyamoto was evidently rather taller than most of his contemporaries, & I've heard estimates up to six feet. So it's not too surprising that he would choose a longer katana than most others, too. I wasn't aware that his sword was resident in Shimada Museum, however. A quick Google search shows that Colin Hyakutake-Watkins evidently made a statement to that effect. Does anyone here know about that?

 

As a European fencer for the past 55 years, I've spent quite a bit of time examining the differences in teaching methods & fencing techniques over the past 500-600 years as a function of how the swords were evolving. But if there's any correlation between Nihonto shape/size/etc. & training/technique, I haven't stumbled upon it.

 

I guess a good starting question would be whether swordsmiths made new swords based on what their local daimyo requested, or if their sword-making just slowly evolved based on whichever new technology trickled in from other parts of Japan, Korea, & China.

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, I have not seen the sugata of nihonto developing as a result of a particular ryuha but they can be made to suit the particular needs of the swordsman which would be influenced by his ryu. Sugata changes reflected the type of warfare for which they were intended. Long sweeping koshizori swords for combat ahorse. Shorter swords for combat afoot, which became more torizori as the sword became worn in the obi edge up. Changes in boshi and style of forging as a result of adapting to a certain type of armour. I think this would show that the sugata of the sword and the techniques that developed with which to wield them was a gradual adaptation by both to the type of combat being waged within in a certain period. No egg, no chicken, just evolution. John

[deskjet]

here are a few pictures of my owari seki[/img] i hope!

Anthony

[Ken-Hawaii]

Anthony, I can't see any images of your Owari-Seki blade. Can you please retry?