Gunky Rusty Mucky Grime

[Wickstrom]

So I bought this blade a while back from a member here on the board, The sword was fine from the photos besides a few nail catchers (none of this black stuff was there) but then he shipped the blade to me in a very old and dirty saya. When I pulled it out, this is what I got. I've tried using a Q-tip with some 99% isopropyl alcohol to break it down and get it off and religious uchiko sessions over the last few months but this stuff seems impossible, I was wondering if any of you guys have any recommendations?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Wow! That's pretty ugly, Andrew! Did the seller mention that little detail to you? From the way the black coating looks, I doubt it was picked up from the saya, especially just in transit to you.

 

You might try using acetone on the crud to see if that removes it; do be careful to keep away from heat sources. If that doesn't work, there's a chemical called methyl isobutyl ketone (MIBK) that you can likely find that may do the trick. Neither of these will damage the blade, although you don't want to get them on the nakago to keep the patina intact.

 

Good luck!

 

Ken

[drdata]

Was going to suggest denatured alcohol, but the 99% (or is that 90%) iso should be pretty close.

 

Maybe some wd40, which is a good solvent. If its a cosmoline like substance/grease they should all work.

 

Hoping the best for this blade. And, feeling glad the wak I bought from you was not shipped in such a saya.

 

 

Best regards

[Grey Doffin]

Definitely wasn't picked up from the saya between him and you. Have you asked him what it is and how to get rid of it?

Grey

[Wickstrom]

Thanks guys for your suggestions , I'll try to pick up some (MIBK) off ebay later tonight and try WD40 next time I take it out.

 

As for the grime itself, it almost looks like tree sap or pitch but it just wont budge.

 

When I received it and saw this crud on there i requested a refund from the member and he agreed to refund me but he said he needed to take care of some family matters and never messaged me back, don't think I'll be seeing my money again so I guess i'll just have to stick with what I got and make the best of it

 

It's a Bishu Osafune Sukesada dated February Tenmon 10, maybe do a window and see how it looks.

[sanjuro]

Andrew.

 

Sorry to break into the thread, but I find this quite disturbing. That rubbish on the blade is far older than the purchase date and apparently not disclosed to you. Until now I always thought that as a matter of principle on this board, we dealt honestly even generously at times with one another when buying and selling among members. Are we now to be wary of each other or was this seller just a fly by night??

[Wickstrom]

Andrew.

 

Sorry to break into the thread, but I find this quite disturbing. That rubbish on the blade is far older than the purchase date and apparently not disclosed to you. Until now I always thought that as a matter of principle on this board, we dealt honestly even generously at times with one another when buying and selling among members. Are we now to be wary of each other or was this seller just a fly by night??

 

I don't think we have to be overly cautious when buying here on the board, most of us here are genuinely interested in nihonto as an object of art over monetary gain off them and trade honestly with each other. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt most of the time, in this case, I do not know if his excuse is valid or if he was simply trying to make a few dollars and run off. Although, I will ask if anyone could possibly put me in contact with a Mr. Jock Werner/Wagner from Australia as he was the seller of this blade, it would be much appreciated.

[Toryu2020]

Clearly looks like sap/pine pitch as deposited from test cutting to me,

pine especially can turn a blade black pretty quick. I would avoid WD40 and if you use any chemicals, make sure you keep them away from the nakago and the saya and other fittings. If there is a way to neutralize them before returning the blade to the saya do so, the last thing you want is a pertroleum smell emaninating from your scabbard for years to come.

fwiw

-t

[Wickstrom]

Clearly looks like sap/pine pitch as deposited from test cutting to me,

pine especially can turn a blade black pretty quick. I would avoid WD40 and if you use any chemicals, make sure you keep them away from the nakago and the saya and other fittings. If there is a way to neutralize them before returning the blade to the saya do so, the last thing you want is a pertroleum smell emaninating from your scabbard for years to come.

fwiw

-t

 

Thank-you for your response, Toryu

 

Sap was what I was thinking as well, You can't really see it in the photos I posted, but the gunk is raised off the blade rather than rust, which would be a part of the blade. It's just a bare blade right now (deluxe-juyo Suran wrap koshirae to be exact ) so damaging fittings with chemicals won't be an issue. I figured anything would be better then putting to back into that muddy/whatever-was-in-there saya it came in, regardless of whether or not the black stuff came from the saya.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Both acetone & MIBK are quite volatile - did I mention staying away from heat sources? - so a few minutes after using them, you shouldn't be able to smell much of anything...except maybe what's on the blade. Can you smell anything around the gunk, BTW?

 

Ken

[sanjuro]

Pine sap would come off with methylated spirit..... There would be a stain left behind though, depending on what sort of conifer was cut. This may well be sap of some kind but of what? It strikes me that since the previous owner was an Australian, (I feel as if I should apologise on his behalf), and Australia abounds in Eucalypts, then if it is a sap deposit, it could be a Eucalyptus sap. Gum trees are sometimes quite a soft wood and they would be good for casual cutting practice but for the fact that the sap is corrosive. We have for instance, a softwood gum tree called a Christmas tree here because of its flowers. The damn things bleed sap through the bark, they are so full of it. The sap is dark red and like a pine sap when dry. Its as hard as glass and difficult to remove. Alcohol would however soften it.

This is just a thought, (though perhaps not a pleasant one), so dont shoot me for it. :D

[Guido]

Alcohol would however soften it.

Makes sense. It softens *me* all the time ...

[sanjuro]

Me too! Alcohol softens most saps. :lol: I just realised that what you said can be taken two ways..... Oh well never mind... The statement still holds true.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Keith, do you really think there would be a stain, assuming the gunk is sap? I can't see how it would be able to permeate the metal. As somewhat of a metallurgist, I know that staining steel is definitely not an easy task, even in the lab. Rust, sure - stain, I doubt it.

 

Ken

[sanjuro]

Ken

 

You have a point and 'stain' would be incorrect. It was the first word that popped into my head. Residue would be a better and far more accurate term. It seems when the sap is removed a dark film remains that is hard to dissolve. It can be abraded away much like the film left behind by pure clove oil when allowed to dry right out over a long period, but of course in the case of a blade we cant even contemplate abrasion of any kind other than a polish. I am surprised that the action of uchiko which is a very mild abrasive, has not effected the discolouration on Andrew's blade. One is almost tempted to think that perhaps the discolouration is in fact oxidation of the blade itself.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm fairly sure it's a coating, Keith, & I've seen something like it before, but just don't have enough brain cells working this evening. You can see where he's scraped some of it away, & I assume that Andrew isn't using sandpaper or Ajax. I'm betting that a strong ketone (acetone or MIBK) will dissolve most of that crud. Even gasoline might do the trick - & did I mention staying away from heat sources...?

 

Ken

[sanjuro]

Yes ... I'm thinking a little more clearly now, and a stain requires molecular access and interstitial penetration. All of which is almost impossible with a tempered and hardened steel. So, a film of some kind. If it were an organic film such as sap then the acetone et al would dissolve it. What would be the result on a chemical based (non organic) deposit? (assuming of course that you stayed away from heat sources )

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well, I guess a deposit of, say, carbon would be hard to get off without the right chemical. Carbon disulfide would probably work in that case, although it's really nasty stuff to work with. Baked-on sulfur could also leave a gunky deposit like that, but then the heat involved in either of those cases would likely leave the blade in such bad shape that it wouldn't be collectible.

 

Was the seller really ticked off about something when he sold that blade?

 

Ken

[loui]

Andrew was it just a spray lacquer on the blade? Get it off?

[Wickstrom]

I'm okay with a little residue left on the blade if it'll take care of this stuff (anything is better than it's current state). So I took your word, Ken, I ordered some pure acetone off ebay to see if that'll do the trick. I'll post back the results later on next week after I try it out.

 

 

Andrew was it just a spray lacquer on the blade? Get it off?

 

Hey Louis, Good to see your back on the board. I don't think it's lacquer, I put some sterilized medical gloves on to see if I could pick it off with my finger a while back and it felt pretty gummy/sticky.

[cabowen]

You can buy acetone at nearly any hardware or drug store (finger nail polish remover)....

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, Andrew, I should have mentioned that plain old nail polish is 99% acetone, & would work just as well as the pure stuff. Sorry that I made you spend a few extra bucks! Thanks for catching that, Chris.

 

Ken

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

If it's resinous, white spirit might be an option.

 

In a previous thread with a similar though not identical problem, the esteemed Ian B (who has a knowledge of such things) suggested a wadding product called Duraglit which contains white spirit.

 

As it may not be available where you are based, here's the spec:

 

http://www.e-hygienesystems.com/coshh/s ... raglit.pdf

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Tom Darling]

Maybe the color is a dark blue (looks like color black), and is actually the blades surface color? Ron

[runagmc]

I don't know if this would work, but if its some kind of resin you could try something like 'Goo Gone'. It's made from citrus oils and works good on tar and all kinds of sticky stuff. The citrus oils might be somewhat acidic though so you would need to nuetralize it after. Probably just a good rinse with water and then clean with uchiko a couple times and leave a good coat of mineral oil after that. Whatever you use it might be a good idea to test a small area first. Good luck.

 

Adam

[Stephen]

http://paint-and-supplies.hardwarestore ... 01295.aspx

 

OOPS is the way to go

[drdata]

Andrew, any updates, or are you still waiting for the acetone?

 

The MDSS for goo gone state it can have up to 85% or so petroleum distillates. I'd wager its naphtha/lighter fluid with some citrus scent. That said, naphtha is a fair bit milder than acetone, and is used for wet sanding lacquer. Might be worth a trip to the smoke shop if none on hand.

 

Regards

[Wickstrom]

Hey Guys, sorry for the delay. I've been up to my knees in work lately. I had some time to take the sword out again and try some the acetone treatment. Overall I think it went pretty well, It didn't get it all off, but made some significant progress. Still quite a bit of gunk on the Ura side of the blade to get off, but the omote is coming along nicely. I'm going to try Harry's and Stephen's suggestions next week to see if that will finish the job up.

[runagmc]

Here's some info on the citrus oil cleaners if you were interested...

 

http://www.ascleanedontv.com/articles/c ... aners.html