Question about So-hi

[blekk]

Hi all,

 

Just been doing some reading and searching and have a quick question about bo-hi/so-hi. How common is it to have the bo-hi continue through the nakago with out it being suriage? Also as you see in picture 2, there is a so-hi (possible called something else??) as well that sits below the habaki on the nakago; Would that indicate it to be suriage? Just looking for a possible answer from someone more educated then me

 

 

Cheers Blair

 

EDIT: Added bo-hi in opening sentence to make more sense

[sanjuro]

The proper term for a hi that is chiselled through the length of the nakago is kaki toshi. It was a feature of some early koto tachi and I believe (although the name of the smiths and schools escape me at the moment) to have been a feature of some yamato and yamashiro blades. Essentially, it was in the old days more expedient to chisel the hi through or to chisel it halfway through (kaki nagashi) and tapering it within the nakago than to end it prior to the habaki, since it is quite difficult to end two grooves on opposite sides of the blade in an identical fashion and position. (Forming the end of a groove properly is quite a tedious process). One sees this on some Nanbokucho blades that have not been shortened, likewise with some blades of the Sengoku Jidai.

The blade in your picture would have been O suriage since there is no reason to cut a narrow groove only in the nakago. It would I think once have been a short tsure hi groove on the original blade before it was shortened. So to answer your question, it was not uncommon to find hi, kake toshi, on unshortened blades. By the same token it was not common either, and the blades I have seen with this feature have all been fine examples. :D

[blekk]

Thanks Sanjuro. Doing a little research I did come across the possibility of kaki toshi, but searching here and the WWW turns up very little on the subject/examples.

 

Blair

[sanjuro]

Purely out of interest, should you be curious as to the 'why' of a hi chiseled through. (Kake Toshi)

If the tosho cuts a groove in a blade that ends before the habaki, he has to cut it from both ends toward the centre of the blade. Keeping the groove an even depth becomes difficult. If the groove is chiselled straight through the nakago, the cutting is only in one direction from the kissaki toward the nakago and through it. The control of the groove depth becomes much easier because the cutting tool is drawn with even pressure along the full length of the blade. Similarly with a groove chiselled half way through the nakago where the cutting tool is gradually lifted as the groove comes to an end, hence the long pointed groove in the nakago on Kaki Nagashi examples................. Just a bit of sword trivia. :D

[cabowen]

The correct term is kaki-toshi.....

 

edited to correct spelling...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Kakitoshi 掻き通し is the correct term.

[sanjuro]

Well..... Thats three of us that agree on the correct term. :D I spelled it right in the first post the first time I wrote it and wrong every subsequent time. KAKITOSHI it is.

[blekk]

Thanks all, Im glad we cleared that up

One thing that is now puzzling me (for my own reference) is the blade in question is 58cm - or 22.8" for the yanks and anyone else who uses the outdated measurement systems - This is just short of the typical katana length, but 20cm short of a typical tachi length which could explain the possible koshi bi being below the habaki due to o suriage (or a smith that can't count properly). If this was the case tho and it originally was a tachi, wouldn't the blade have one hell of a koshi sori and throw everything out of proportion? (see first attachment in first post for image of whole blade) Also looking at the hamon it seems to finish right at the Habaki-moto and doesn't appear to continue into the nakago; this usually a tell tale sign that there has been some form of suriage when the hamon continues into the nakago???

 

AND just to keep rambling...... I remember reading somewhere that koshi sori (and other notch designs) were a form of writing prayers on a blade, could this just be a simple prayer that is hidden by the tsuke?

 

Blair

[Toryu2020]

Blair et al -

I may be out on a limb here but I don't see this blade as suriage. The hamon starts at the machi and the jiri looks correct. Are we sure we aren't looking at a kodachi here?

 

And if so then the soe-bi appears to have been polished away leaving only what we see on the nakago. That is what I see anyway.

 

Blair - blade length is one indicator of blade type, placement of the signature, and age may also be determinants. The koshirae if original could also make a katana out of a shorter blade if that is how it was worn. We have to be flexible sometimes with our understanding of these terms. If the age is correct the blade you post would be a kodachi I think and if later a wakizashi barring any other evidence.

 

Koshizori appears in the lower third of the blade, not just the nakago - the machi are something different altogether neither have much to do with prayers. Perhaps you are thinking of Gohei-gata nakago, a unique shape of tang that looks like the sacred paper of a Shinto shrine.

-t

[sanjuro]

Thomas may be right about the tsuri hi groove having been polished away. If he is, then a fair amount of material has been removed from this blade over the years by polishing. One way to confirm this is to take a pic of the general habaki moto/mune machi area from the mune edge of the blade. What you are looking for is a tapering thickness of the blade in that vicinity.

[blekk]

Ok more ideas fantastic thanks for the possibilities so far - Process of elimination! Looking at the mune there doesn't seem to be any tapering (see pic 1). Although I can see that the tsuri hi groove or soe hi or what ever it may be could have continued a little further up but I cant see any evidence it has been polished away (see pic 2 & 3), but then again you guys would know a LOT more then me

 

Reading up on the possibility that it could be a kodachi and these are usually a set length around 59-60cm with more of a sori than a wakizashi is that correct? Can someone point me towards maybe a side by side comparison on the two as there is very little hard info on the kodachi apart from "it was shorter than the tachi but longer than a wakizashi".

 

Blair

[Guido]

Swords over 2 Shaku 尺, i.e. 60.6 cm (1 Shaku 尺 = 30.3 cm, or about 1 foot) from tip to Munemachi 棟区 (notch where the tang starts) are Daitō 大刀, from 1 to 2 Shaku 尺 (30.3 ~ 60.6 cm) are Shōtō 小刀, and under 1 Shaku 尺 (30.3 cm) are Tantō 短刀. The usual Daitō 大刀 are the Katana 刀 (i.e. Uchigatana 打刀) and Tachi 太刀. Shōtō 小刀 are mostly Wakizashi 脇差 (Wakizashi 脇指 over 1 Shaku 尺 8 Sun 寸, or 54.5 cm, are called Ō-Wakizashi 大脇指), and there are many variations of Tantō 短刀. Borderline cases are Katate-uchigatana 片手打刀 (Katana 刀 just a little longer or shorter than 2 Shaku 尺 intended for single-hand use).

 

The “standard / average length” during the Edo period 江戸時代 was called Teisun 定寸; it’s 2 Shaku 尺 3 Sun 寸 5 Bu 分 (71.2 cm) for Katana 刀, and 8 Sun 寸 5 Bu 分 (25.8 cm) for Tantō 短刀. Tantō 短刀 longer than Teisun 定寸 are called Sunnobi-tantō 寸延び短刀, and less than Teisun 定寸 Sunzumari-tantō 寸詰まり短刀.

 

The destinction between Katana 刀 and Tachi 太刀 is not made on the basis of length. The Katana 刀 is worn put through the sash, cutting edge up; the Mei 銘 (makers inscription) faces outwards (Sashi-omote 差表). When a sword is worn suspended from the sash with the cutting edge towards the ground, but with the Mei 銘 still facing outwards (since it's inscribed on the opposite side of the Nakago 茎, tang), it's a Tachi 太刀.

 

Tachi 太刀 of more than 3 Shaku 尺 (90.9 cm) are referred to as Ōdachi 大太刀, whereas Tachi 太刀 under 2 Shaku尺 (60.6 cm) are called Kodachi 小太刀.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

It may be helpful to carefully study oshigata of swords with bo hi which have already been identified as to being ubu or suriage/osuriage. There are several online websites that display nice oshigata, among them nihonto.us, look under juyo token. Also, there are always those things called books with oshigata, which seem to be becoming a thing of the past among new nihonto collectors.

[cabowen]

 

The “standard / average length” during the Edo period 江戸時代 was called Teisun 定寸; it’s 2 Shaku 尺 3 Sun 寸 5 Bu 分 (71.2 cm) for Katana 刀, and 8 Sun 寸 5 Bu 分 (25.8 cm) for Tantō 短刀. Tantō 短刀 longer than Teisun 定寸 are called Sunnobi-tantō 寸延び短刀, and less than Teisun 定寸 Sunzumari-tantō 寸詰まり短刀.

 

 

I think I am now cross eyed from reading this English/Japanese amalgamation....

 

By the way, 定寸　is pronounced jyo sun, not tei sun......Oh, but we have already been over that so I guess you still prefer to use what sounds natural to you....

 

PS: here are a few more links with the correct pronunciation shown in hiragana:

 

http://www.spacelan.ne.jp/~daiman/rekishi/shinsen02.htm

http://ameblo.jp/rekisi-shiro/day-20110129.html

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

By the way, 定寸　is pronounced jyo sun, not tei sun

 

Isn't it Josun ?

 

Back to the sword; this one seems pretty tired, i believe that i see some kakidashi.

[sanjuro]

Having had a bit of time to study the pics, I believe Thomas's theory is correct. I dont think this sword is O suriage as I first assumed.

There has been a fair amount of material removed from this blade. Evidence is in the habaki moto and below it. On the blade, the chiri between the narrow groove and the hi has been removed by polishing. Where once the shinogi would have been at the lower lip of the narrow groove as it is in the nakago, polishing has effectively removed the narrow groove and repositioned the shinogi on the blade, which is now at the lower lip of the hi. There is also some indication of machi okuri, evidenced by the file marks on the mune of the nakago and the slight angle difference in the nakago at the habaki moto, where the ha machi has been re cut. All of this is consistent with a blade that has been repolished many times and lost its original ha machi.

[Guido]

By the way, 定寸　is pronounced jyo sun, not tei sun......Oh, but we have already been over that so I guess you still prefer to use what sounds natural to you....

 

PS: here are a few more links with the correct pronunciation shown in hiragana:

 

http://www.spacelan.ne.jp/~daiman/rekishi/shinsen02.htm

http://ameblo.jp/rekisi-shiro/day-20110129.html

Well, the alternative pronounciation would be "jōsun (じょうすん)" - but we've been there already indeed . You give some links, I give some links (http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/%E3%81%98 ... 6%E3%81%A1), and both of us think we're right .... .... guess it will give NMB a good many posts for years to come ....

[Brian]

No it won't..because as Guido said....

...so I'll be deleting any further comments on that issue. Can we drop it now?

 

Brian

[blekk]

Thanks all I was honestly just looking for some clarification as I was puzzled about the soe hi because there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it has been polished out (must have been a great togi). Yes Franco I am a newbie in the nihonto world with many more books to be added to my collection! But don't we all have something new we can learn from others who have more knowledge then us?

 

Blair

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Blair,

 

Oshigata remark was intended in general. That aside, at least to these eyes this sword definitely looks O-suriage, and the soe bi doesn't look polished down much because it's not. The reshaped jiri is an indication that the sword may have been shortened in the koto period.

Could you please post better images of the kissaki/boshi, thank you?

[blekk]

Interesting...... Franco please see the attached image of bohsi/kissaki for comment

 

Blair

[nagamaki - Franco]

This image showing the kissaki/boshi is marginal, a profile image taken of both sides would be nice.

[sanjuro]

Franco.

 

I would be interested to know how you see the jiri has been reshaped as an indication of O suriage. Though it may have been reshaped at some point, there is no way of knowing whether it was O suriage or a simply to reconfigure the nakago after a minimal shortening. What I am getting at here is that there is no way of knowing by how much this blade has been shortened merely by the possibility of the nakago jiri having been reshaped. Just curious....... I may well have missed some other indicator that you have spotted.

[runagmc]

Also. if the hira-niku is polish down on a blade, it could, in theory remove the soe-hi without changing the moto-kasane drastically. If that were the case you might not be able to tell over polishing by the difference in nakago_kasane and moto_kasane. Just a thought ...

 

Adam

[nagamaki - Franco]

The reshaping of the jiri is an indication that it was shortened long ago, "Koto" according to Mr. Tanobe. But, that's not what's suggesting O suriage. We must ask ourselves, imagine, what was the original shape of this sword when it was new and go from there ....

[sanjuro]

Franco.

 

I see where you are coming from, but a lot depends on how old you think this blade is..... You are thinking koto tachi, koshi zori, possibly Nanbokucho, O suriage done in the Momoyama period as so many were, as I thought at first. Is that correct?

[blekk]

This image showing the kissaki/boshi is marginal, a profile image taken of both sides would be nice.

 

Franco please see attached pic of the other side (not the best but better profile). Not trying to waste anyone's time, just wanting to learn more and create discussions from some educated people

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

What about measurements ?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Blair, no worries, just wanted to get a better look at the boshi.

 

Keith, of course, this was a much longer tachi at some point, but just how old ???.

[sanjuro]

Franco.

 

Therein lies the question........ I think perhaps (and I am by no means positive), this could be a younger sword than it first appears. Gut feeling mostly..... Mid Momoyama. Hard to get past the appearance typical of so many Sengoku Jidai blades. Having said that, and being prepared to be wrong, I wish I could have this in hand for just a few minutes to be entirely sure. God, I hate doing this with just photographs to go by, but I do see the ha in the kissaki is very thin and the kissaki itself is not parallel with the ko shinogi. This says 'many polishes' to me, and also possibly kissaki damage at some point in the past that has been polished out. Moreso given that the blade is quite tired overall.

This is all speculation of course.