jjsilwm Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 Dear Friends, I identified in another topic, but I will identify here also for those who do not know me. My name is Jair Francisco da Silva Júnior. I am Brazilian and I am a novice in these studies. I looked here in the forum and not found what I wanted to know, so I'll ask you: does anyone know what year the Chinese began to falsify the Japanese swords? And when the Chinese began making art Tsuba (those made with good quality)? And these Tsuba of brass (not bronze), when the Chinese began to manufacture it? Thanks! P.S.: I apologize, because I do not speak English, I write so bad! ________________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
Jean Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 .Fake Chinese swords dtd beginning of 90's Quote
jjsilwm Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 Dear Jean, Thank you for responding so promptly! And when they started the production of art Tsuba (those made with good quality) and Tsuba of brass (not bronze)? Hug! ______________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
sanjuro Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Hi. I dont think the Chinese can be credited with the making of 'Art' tsuba at all, and never of quality. Their tsuba are all cast and of poorer quality, whereas an 'art' tsuba is a one-off hand made item. Others may correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen a Chinese 'art' tsuba, at least not one that was not a cast copy of a Japanese original. The copies started at about the same time as the swords did, in the early 90's. Quote
paulb Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Jean and Keith, Fake militay swords appeared well before the 1990's. A lot appeared in the UK during the early 80's in what approximated Gunto mounts and with blades which had no edge. At the time it was thought these originated in Pakistan but I am not sure if this was true or if in fact they were early attempts by Chinese forgers. I agree that the more commonly seen gaudy examples which appear here in such regularity seemed to date from the early 90's. To be honest I think fake blades have been produced in various parts of the world ever since there was a market for them so would not be surprised if such were not being made since the beginning of the meji period. Quote
jjsilwm Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Dear friends, Thanks for the clarification! Is it possible that the Chinese are incapable of producing art Tsuba? There are even attempts to reproduce swords from the Japanese Meiji period? What about Gimei, which normally write? Write Smiths real names to make the blade appear authentic (it's easy to get a list of the Kanji)? Thanks! ________________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
truelotus Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 hmmm .... actually I believe chinese are able to make good qualoty tsuba, fuchi, kashira and menuki with quality as high as Japanese one. but with such craftmanship, the price will be much higher, also :D now ... supposedly you got USD 500 to spend on fuchi kashira set ... will you buy a Japanese one or chinese one with almost equal quality for say ... USD 50 less than the Japanese counterpart ? :D Quote
sanjuro Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Moot point. The collectors on this board buy antique Japanese pieces. Since when can the Chinese make genuine antique Japanese pieces?? You want Chinese pieces you buy Chinese pieces. You want Japanese pieces you buy Japanese pieces. Would you buy a Ming Dynasty Chinese ceramic piece that was made in Japan yesterday??? I dont think so. Why? Because regardless of the quality it isnt genuine. Can the Chinese make quality tsuba or fuchi/kashira? Yes they probably can, So what? The Chinese manufacture poor quality fakes to deceive people who know little and no doubt they do or will produce better quality ones in an effort to fool people who can tell the difference. However, they are all fakes. Quote
jjsilwm Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Now I understand about the art Tsuba, friends! What about other questions? Thanks! _______________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
sanjuro Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 OK. Lets be clear on one point initially. A sword that is gimei is not a fake. The blade itself is a genuine nihonto and may in itself be a fine blade. Only the signature is false. This is not the same as a fake sword at all. There are many reasons why a sword may be gimei, and I'm sure you'll learn all about them. Read 'The Japanese Sword' by Kanzan Sato. He explains gimei and the reasons for a sword to bear a false signature a lot better than I am prepared to attempt on this forum, since most of us are already familiar with his text it would be a useless waste of time. I think a little research done personally by you will benefit you greatly and answer a lot of these beginner questions. Suffice to say that there have been gimei blades around for a long time, well before the Meiji period. A collector (Or a would-be collector) who bases his appreciation of a sword solely on the signature it bears is making a grave error. There is a saying that 'The sword confirms the signature'. This means that whatever the signature is on the nakago, the sword must by the way it is made and by the characteristics it bears, conform to the signature upon it. A lousy sword with a great signature is usually gimei. By the same token, some swords that bear no signature are made by notable smiths. Thats why many of us send swords to Shinsa. Quote
jjsilwm Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Dear Keith G, Thanks for the enlightening answer! Previously I had search for this book and not find it in my language. Unfortunately there is scarse literature on the subject in my language, becouse that problem is it so difficult for a novice like me to learn about it by reading books! To make matters worse, I read very bad in English and all I can find books in English, which are very expensive in my country (Brazil)! To complete, in general these books are very expensive, and our purchasing power is down here in Brazil! Thank you for your kind collaboration! Hug! ______________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
Brian Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Jair, That may be true, but if I am correct, you have the largest community of Japanese people outside of Japan there. Which must certainly mean there are swords there somewhere, and people who appreciate them. You just need to do some research. I cannot believe there wouldn't be sword collectors and displays there. Brian Quote
jjsilwm Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Dear Brian, Well, I do not know if it is the largest community of Japanese people outside of Japan there. Searching the internet I not found many collectors Nihonto, only collectors of modern swords Japanese style (Paul Chen, Brandon Sword, etc.), Generally are practitioners of Iaido, Kenjutsu, Tameshiguiri etc. As far as I know the Japanese community to which you refer is in a neighborhood called Liberdade in a state called Sao Paulo. Brazil is a state the size of a continent and I live near the north end, while Sao Paulo is almost at the southern end, so it is difficult to travel there (time and cost). Never tried searching on social networks (Facebook, Orkut), then maybe this is my error! Anyway, still can not get books in my language, but I'm starting now and will have to search very, buy the books and study hard! I thank all of you here in the forum for your patience and help they are giving me! Hug! ________________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
Grey Doffin Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Jair, Check out the books that the JSS/US sells. Sue Koto, for example, is 700 some pages and priced at $50 or 60. jssus.org or Google Harry Afu Watson (he sells our books for us). Cheers, Grey Quote
sanjuro Posted August 18, 2011 Report Posted August 18, 2011 Jair. Unless I am sorely mistaken, you are asking these questions in English and I know we are all replying in English and you have no problem reading and understanding the answers. Unless you are using some sort of translator software which doesnt appear on this site, then your understanding of English is far better than you claim. So why not buy the books written in English? At the very least your English will improve and you'll learn a lot about Nihonto. Money spent on books right now for you is a far better investment than money wasted on poor quality swords. Amazon.com has all the books we have on our list of recommended reading. Quote
truelotus Posted August 18, 2011 Report Posted August 18, 2011 Moot point. The collectors on this board buy antique Japanese pieces. Since when can the Chinese make genuine antique Japanese pieces?? You want Chinese pieces you buy Chinese pieces. You want Japanese pieces you buy Japanese pieces. Would you buy a Ming Dynasty Chinese ceramic piece that was made in Japan yesterday??? I dont think so. Why? Because regardless of the quality it isnt genuine. Can the Chinese make quality tsuba or fuchi/kashira? Yes they probably can, So what? The Chinese manufacture poor quality fakes to deceive people who know little and no doubt they do or will produce better quality ones in an effort to fool people who can tell the difference. However, they are all fakes. well said, Keith ... Quote
jjsilwm Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Posted August 18, 2011 Dear Grey, Thanks for the tips! Dear Keith G, Glad to know that my English is so good! Thanks for the advice! Certainly Money spent on books right now for me is a far better investment than money wasted on poor quality swords, as I just ended up doing, unfortunately! Thank you to all members who are helping me! Hug! _______________________ Jair Francisco da Silva Junior Quote
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