GunJam Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 Hello This belonged to my grandpa as far as I know he was first wave into Japan mainland in WWII and took this along with an Arasaka I believe to be a type 99. I know a bit about guns but jack squat about swords this is my only sword. I don't intend to ever sell it. I would like to know: 1) The blade has some odd rust patterns on it like worms ate it what should be done other than oil it or maybe use a light abrasive to remove the rust? 2) What metal alloy is this? 3) whats your guess on value? 4) What were these swords made for? 5) are they hand made and where might the smith place his name or marking??? 6) is that a mum on the handle like on the arasaka..I notice it has less pedals. 7) anything else I should know? Thanks Quote
Grey Doffin Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 Hi, name please, 1. Just a light coat of oil. Do not try to remove the rust because chances are good that you will do damage to the sword and its value. 2. Steel. 3. Maybe $400 to $600, depending on condition and if there is a signature. 4. All Japanese officers had swords during WWII. 5. Your sword is most likely partially hand made out of tool steel, not completely hand made like a traditional Samurai sword. If it is signed it is on the tang under the handle. Here is a site that shows how to remove the handle and a bunch more about sword care. http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm Note: your sword appears to have 2 pins through the handle. Both will have to be removed to get the handle off. 6. That is a piece called menuki (one on either side of handle) and it shows a cherry blossum. 7. Yes; a whole lot more you should know. Start reading and studying. Grey Quote
GunJam Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Posted August 15, 2011 My name is Nick Thanks for the quick reply and info. I guess I missed one important question. What is the name of this sword and does it have a type? Whats the cherry blossom represent? The mum on the arasaka signified that it was property of the emperor of Japan if I recall correctly. Thanks Quote
mizuta Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 Late war army officers sword 1944 pat some of these have very good blades remove the two pegs in the handle remove the handle there should be smiths signature on tang Bernard Quote
GunJam Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Posted August 15, 2011 The lace on the handle is covering the exits for the pegs. how does one move the lace to allow the peg to be drifted out? Thanks -Nick Quote
truelotus Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 Hello 1) The blade has some odd rust patterns on it like worms ate it what should be done other than oil it or maybe use a light abrasive to remove the rust? 2) What metal alloy is this? 3) whats your guess on value? 4) What were these swords made for? 5) are they hand made and where might the smith place his name or marking??? 6) is that a mum on the handle like on the arasaka..I notice it has less pedals. 7) anything else I should know? Thanks First thing first = NEVER put your sword on hard surface like cement floor like what you did on the picture, it may scratch the blade. Use a soft clean (white if possible) cloth to protect your blade 1. NEVER USE ABRASIVE ON YOUR SWORD ... better to neutralize or stop the rust, use clean white cloth and 96% alcohol, wipe clean the blade to get rid of gunk, dirt, gummy oil, etc buy a light mineral oil, sewing machine oil will do, put few drops on clean white cloth and gently wipe the blade - the idea is to put thin layer of oil on all blade surface 2. metal alloy ? if you refer to the blade, this kind of blade is made of carbon steel, and it is intended to be used as weapon, so it is quite strong 3. value depend on many aspects, one is whether this blade is handmade or not, and this needs you to disassemble the blade to see whether a signature present in the tang (nakago) 4. this is a military equipment, designed as part of the soul of Japan embedded within the soldier as well as his sidearm, so if you refer what these sword made for ... simple ... as symbol and identity and pride for Japanese soldier and to kill enemy (and it did very well on it) 5. though I've seen gendaito in type 3 mounting, I seriously doubt yours a gendaito (true Japanese sword made using traditional method), most likely yours are oil quenched and not traditionally made 6. it is called MON ... and it is only a common logo used by IJA (imperial Japanese army) 7. you need to know how to handle and maintain a Japanese sword :D My name is Nick Thanks for the quick reply and info. I guess I missed one important question. What is the name of this sword and does it have a type? Whats the cherry blossom represent? The mum on the arasaka signified that it was property of the emperor of Japan if I recall correctly. Thanks Hi nick, your sword is GUNTO (gun = military, to = sword), it is a 昭和18年制定陸軍制式軍刀 昭和18年～終戦 (通称: 三式) or commissioned shin gunto army type 3, made between 1943 - 1945 the cherry blossom thing called menuki, and it is a standard in every sword like this. The cherry blossom is just a pattern IJA (Imperial Japanese Army) used. If you wanted to know more, just visit : http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_062.htm The lace on the handle is covering the exits for the pegs. how does one move the lace to allow the peg to be drifted out? Thanks -Nick simply look at the other side and push the ito (the lace) slightly upward and knock the out gently ... if you don't have a mekugi nuki, a bamboo chopstick and a small rubber mallet will do if the peg is in bad condition, you can shape the bamboo chopstick as replacement (soak it in tea for 3 days, and let it dry before using it) Quote
cabowen Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 the mekugi on many of these are threaded bolts that needs to be removed with a screw driver.... Quote
GunJam Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Posted August 15, 2011 Yes I think you are right about it being a screw. these screws remove with a standard left hand twist correct? You can see the screw in the 2nd photo it uses a flat blade type screw driver. This screw however seems to be rather stubborn probably due to some oxidation any tips for easing its removal? Thanks -Nick Quote
Bruno Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 Not a big deal if you damage the screws, they are just...screws. Then you can replace them (if destroyed) by wooden mekugi. Looks better to me and more "traditionnal". Quote
GunJam Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Posted August 15, 2011 I guess I have to ask what would happen if the shank of the screw were to break just below the head? will I be able to remove the blade or am in going to be in big trouble? Thanks -Nick Quote
Grey Doffin Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 Nick, What do you see on the other side of the handle from the screw head? If nothing then the screw probably isn't original and no great loss. If there is another screw head then one side is a bolt and the other is a hollow shank that works as a nut. You might try putting a tiny bit of something like WD40 (rust breaker) inside the hole on the screw shank, wait a day, and then try working the screw back & forth to see if the bond breaks. If the head does break off at the top of the shank you should be able to push it out the other side. Grey Quote
GunJam Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Posted August 15, 2011 There does not appear to be anything opposite of the screw under the lace it simply appears to be the white handle material...Oddly enough the same appears to be true for the wooden pin I dont think its possible to push the wooden pin out from the other side because there is no hole Quote
Bruno Posted August 15, 2011 Report Posted August 15, 2011 I would dare to say just pull the screws with the appropriate tool and let's see what happen. I do not think you will damage anything. Am I wrong? Quote
truelotus Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 Ah yes ... I see that it was indeed using screws ... in that case, I am agree with Jean & Bruno above ... try a spray of WD-40 to loosen the rust and use a screwdriver to pull it out if that's not working, simply try to pry the screw ... do it carefully and you won't hurt the blade :D and after that, replace the screw with bamboo stick, carved from chopstick :D Quote
Grey Doffin Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 Prying the screw will damage the tsuka. The hole should go clear through the handle. Push on the point of the screw from the other side as you work on the head with a screw driver. You may have to slide the wrap a bit to uncover the hole. Grey Quote
GregD Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 here is the steel plate the screw is threaded into,do not try to pry or drive the screw out,it unscrews.http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i47 ... G_0443.jpg Greg Quote
GunJam Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 Okay thanks for the info I think maybe some needle nose visegrips will help it unscrew. Quote
Bruno Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 Put some machine gun oil on the screws and wait few hours.... Is it that hard to unscrews these? I thought it was easy. Quote
GunJam Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 I have plenty of that and I did just that...This one is stubborn that's for sure working around the laces makes it much tougher as well... I just have to secure a suitable set of visegrips now Quote
GunJam Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 So now what??? I got the handle off and there are indeed writings on the tang....But 1) there is only one hole drilled in the tang and that's where the screw went through. 2) The wooden peg just went through the handle and butted up against the tang there is obviously no hole for it to secure the tang to the handle. 3) there is some red marking on the end of the tang farthest from the blade. Is this a last ditch gunto? Would make sense as it would go with the last ditch arasaka that accompanied it for so many years. Of course what does the writing say? They are on both sides of the tang but are different...so I guess one side says something different than the other. Thanks -Nick http://www.3rflying.com/sword4.jpg http://www.3rflying.com/sword5.jpg Quote
Grey Doffin Posted August 16, 2011 Report Posted August 16, 2011 Hi Nick, The 1st picture is the signature of the man who made the sword; I can't see it clear enough to read. The 2nd is the date: Showa Ni Ju Nen Go? Gatsu. Showa 20 year 5 month, or May of 1945. Looks to be a standard Showato/Gunto: made for WWII by non-traditional methods by a smith without real training in Nihonto. Grey Quote
GunJam Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Posted August 16, 2011 Yeah I wasnt sure if that one was going to work...so I found a suitable lighting source set my stops manual, shutter to 1/800 and manual focus I got you this beauty...(you might have to hit refresh if the same photo loads) http://www.3rflying.com/sword4.jpg Any idea who made this sword now? Thanks -Nick Quote
Jean Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 I would say Yoshinaga the other side is the date, I let you translate it with this linkd. It will take you 5 minutes and you will lear a lot: http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/kanji/nengo.htm http://www.jssus.org/nkp/shinto_to_modern_nengo.html Edit to add I see that Grey was kind enough to translate the date Quote
GunJam Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Hello Thank you for the links with the date information. I went to try to find more information about Yoshinaga but had several different results. Is there a first name so that I may more precisely search about this individual... any useful links about him would be greatly appreciated as well. Thank You -Nick Quote
Grey Doffin Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Hi Nick, Odds are very high that you won't be able to learn anything much about the man who made your sword. Mass produced officer's swords were made by whomever was available to do the work, not by trained swordsmiths. No records that I'm aware of were kept on these sword assemblers. If this is Yoshinaga (not sure about that; he had very sloppy handwriting) there is nothing in any of my books about him. Grey Quote
Bruno Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Hi Nick, He is recorded in the Seki Kaji Tosho list at the bottom of the page. Maybe also upper in the same page but you have to look by yourself. http://www.jp-sword.com/files/seki/gendaito.html As Grey said, very few chances to look some infos about him. Regards Quote
cabowen Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 Don't think this is Yoshinaga. It is Kane something, maybe Kanenaga. Non-traditional mass production in any case..... Quote
GunJam Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Hey thanks for your help Must have been made on a Friday after lunch. I dont really see much resemblance to either Yoshinaga or Kane. I knew a guy who was an exchange student from Japan do you guys think a native speaker would be able to identify that any better? What are the odds that this sword was issued to someone? How were most of these acquired found in shipping crates? Thanks again -Nick Quote
cabowen Posted August 17, 2011 Report Posted August 17, 2011 It is Kane and no, most Japanese will not be of much help with sword inscriptions.... Most likely this was issued. Quote
GunJam Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Posted August 17, 2011 Thank you all very much for your help. I am wondering how to best reassemble this sword. there is no threaded receiver of any kind in the handle. The screw I removed did not technically "Thread" into anything however it did back its self out from the tang when twisted. The screw went through the handle and fit snug into the hole in the tang and then the tip sat in a small pocket that was hollowed out on the other side of the handle it did not go clean though the handle it stopped just short on the other side. The bamboo peg did nothing... I think im going to try to find a brass screw that just touches the inside of the hole in the tang and some what force it in like the original any other suggestions? Quote
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