First Menuki purchase - opinions please?

[CurtisR]

Greetings all,

I've just received my first purchase of Menuki (on ebay)...I've been doing a lot of lurking here & reading and believe them to be 'real', but wanted to get the opinions of those more knowing than I. The work seems pretty detailed, and no tool-marks can be seen on the reverse. The bodies are copper and the Persimmons either gold plate or foil, from what I can tell.

Any thoughts on age, etc. would be much appreciated as would a general idea on whether the pick was decent as related to the quality.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Curt R.

[ububob]

When you buy on Ebay you deserve what you get. In this case my guess would be very late Edo possibly Meiji and mediocre work. If you want to see what real detail looks like search out some Goto, Yoshioka, Ko-Mino et al pieces and you will see the difference. Remember, this is just my opinion and worth every cent you paid for it.

[Soshin]

I would agree with Bob's analysis of the menuki in question. Overall not the worst first time purchase I have seen. I also like the Kyo-Kinko school as well. They often made good quality copies of the Goto school work during the Edo Period.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[CurtisR]

Thank you Bob & David! I will absolutely look up the works as suggested...I'm all about learning and very much appreciate the opinions - which, by the way, are worth much more than I paid, IMHO :D ! Total cost was $82.00 (I hope it's not rude to mention this). Any suggestions for sites, books, etc would also be much appreciated if it's not too much trouble.

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Curt R.

[Soshin]

Hi Curt R.,

 

It is good that you didn't over pay for your first purchase. Given what it is its what I would consider a fair price. But be prepare to pay much more for a medium and high end menuki set.

I'm all about learning and very much appreciate the opinions - which, by the way, are worth much more than I paid, IMHO !

This is the right mindset to have starting out and it will allow you to go far. Just start by looking around for links section of this website and sales forum for a start. Even if you not ready to buy it will allow you to see what is out there in the international market. A final recombination is to attend one of the Japanese sword shows in the USA as it will give you a good opportunity to see what is out their and see many more menuki sets in hand without buying. I hope you find this information helpful.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Pete Klein]

http://www.tampajapaneseswordshow.com/

 

Southwest Airlines flies there. It's a good show and you will learn alot.

[davidian]

I recommend the MFA in Boston; they have a very large and searchable collection with excellent images that can be zoomed. For example, by searching on "menuki" you get: http://www.mfa.org/search/collections?keyword=menuki&page=1&rows=64. Their tsuba collection is awesome. Of course, after you look at the MFA stuff most of eBay offerings won't look so great, but at least you will know what you could get if you save up your money.

 

Regards,

[CurtisR]

Thank you Pete and David...I did some reading on Goto Menuki today and see some distinct difference to say the least. I'm not unhappy with my persimmon purchase and like the subject - I actually like them for the price. I can see however that I'll need to start going to shows as suggested (twist my arm )!

 

And thank you for the link David - looks like an amazing site.

 

Best,

 

Curt R.

Aurora, CO

USA

[Rich T]

If you really want to learn, go to the show, or any show for that matter. You cannot tell anything from looking at images online, and trying to learn that way, it is a waste of time and makes for a bad set of eyes.

 

Take Pete's suggestion up and go and see these things in hand, THEN you will have a better idea of what you are looking at. Doing that over the years not only teaches you what is good and what is not, it also aids in being able to then see quality in images. If in doubt, buy papered items, at least you are assured they are the real deal.

 

As a last note, I guess if you like the price of those menuki, you won't be rushing out to spend a 2K on a proper set, because Good menuki start at that price though you can get lucky, but if buying from a store, and papered, expect to pay high prices for quality.

 

10 $100 fittings = a $1000 collection of junk.

 

Rich

[davidian]

Actually, there is nothing like buying a piece to get one interested in researching - in some ways a cheaper piece is a safer way to do this, because you don't risk as much. And once you do start looking hard, so that you can find out where your piece stands in the field, you may find your taste changing. You might even find that you have a taste for pieces that are not held in high regard by the constituted authorities (whose claim to authority may rest on shaky ground anyway)! Collections like the MFA's are a good way to see the best and form a taste. I strongly doubt that any of the shows will have many pieces that can stand with the stuff they have. If you are going to invest in a trip - go look over a major collection, and don't buy anything expensive until you are sure that you know what's what and what you like.

 

Good luck.

[Pete Klein]

Well, you should have been in San Fran last week. How many Goto Yujo menuki have you been able to hold up to inspect closely? The NBTHK AB put on an exhibit of sixteen generations of Shirobei Mainline Masters, menuki, kogai, kozuka, koshirae, etc. It will be awhile before that is eclipsed.

[ububob]

That was a remarkable experience to be able to get up close and personal with all 16 generations with a running dialogue from Mike Yamasaki and Bob Benson.

[Ted Tenold]

It was a remarkable exhibit indeed. Tom pointed out in another thread somewhere that it's not even the kind of exhibit that one would expect in Japan, and he's absolutely correct. About ten years ago, I remember being shown a private collection of a dozen or so pieces representative of several generations. I thought that was really special, and it was. The NBTHK/AB display was mind boggling. 71 pieces and sets in one place, up close and personal. Loupes were even provided for everyone to get a really good look. My favorite, Joshin (third generation mainline) was represented by several pieces, one of which was owned by the Tokugawa family at one time. This is not the kind of opportunity that should have been missed. In fact, each show has something special whether it's 71 pieces or 5. Highest compliments to Bob Benson and Mike Yamasaki for their hard work, and deepest thanks to all who graciously lent their pieces to assemble such a wonderful exhibit.

 

These arts and the crafts that bear them can never be studied or fully appreciated in two dimensional on a computer monitor. Even a classic painting is two dimensional in rendering, but without standing in front of it, the comfortable warmth and hue of yellows that Van Gogh used, or the brush strokes in which he laid them will go totally unappreciated. The light that shines down upon the humbled and sorrowful Penitent Magdelena by Titian, which I stood in front of at the Getty Museum with tears welling in my own eyes. Yeah sure, go look at it on line....yup, that's a picture, but it's not a painting and you won't get anywhere near the inspiration, impact, or impression.

 

GET TO A SHOW. GET TO A MUSEUM. Pictures are nice to look at, but beyond available articles, on line study has very little to offer to advance the eye.

 

@ David Martin; sorry, but I disagree with much of what you're saying. But I do agree with some also.

 

Actually, there is nothing like buying a piece to get one interested in researching - in some ways a cheaper piece is a safer way to do this, because you don't risk as much.

 

Risk can be attenuated without buying pieces that one is unable to distinguish between chalk and cheese. So safer than what? Saving money, getting educated first, *then* buying something from someone that will help you? There's nothing like wasting money.

 

And once you do start looking hard, so that you can find out where your piece stands in the field, you may find your taste changing.

 

Then it will be too late. Better to buy nicer pieces that will hold value, be more desireable, and better enable migrating into better pieces in the direction that becomes more appealing.

 

You might even find that you have a taste for pieces that are not held in high regard by the constituted authorities (whose claim to authority may rest on shaky ground anyway)!

 

So, never mind the man behind the curtain? Beginners know better? Buy stuff no one likes and it's okay? Maybe if no one likes it, there's a reason. Lemme know how that works out for ya. On the other hand, there is really is no antidote for bad taste.

 

Collections like the MFA's are a good way to see the best and form a taste.

 

Here we agree. However, doing this before buying a boatload of "safer" chopstick rests, seems safer yet.

 

I strongly doubt that any of the shows will have many pieces that can stand with the stuff they have.

 

Oh Ye of little faith, and less exposure. Please take the opportunity to dispel your own doubt by attending a show. The Tampa Show is in February. You may be surprised at what you find.

 

If you are going to invest in a trip - go look over a major collection, and don't buy anything expensive until you are sure that you know what's what and what you like.

 

Here I also concur. But shows do offer very nice, top rated examples to see also.

 

I know my response reads perhaps a bit abrasive, and thus the insertion of smileys here and there to inflect a lighter tone. However, shows are getting an unfair shake as folks mistakenly believe that the internet will be their ultimate saviour and deliver them from inconvenience and monetary waste. It's a false god in the pursuit of knowledge and comprehension of any art form, well unless you consider website construction an art. :lol:

[CurtisR]

Thanks to both Mr. Martin & Mr. Tenold as well! Both have excellent points, and I believe I understand what David was trying to get across. I will say that the photographs I've been seeing of older, more skilled work do give me an *idea* of what I should be shooting for in a collection even if I'm not able to see them at a show immediately. Basically, it's a way to look at the items on evilBay with a more skeptical eye before making that bid.

 

I train in MJER Iaido, and believe what Ted is saying is simply that; looking at photos online is like watching Iai videos - one can learn a bit from them, but it's far different to learn from a Sensei in the dojo with hands on a katana and feet on the ground . Just as laying hands on these little works of art is different than reading about them. I've only just started my interest in Tosogu and Nihonto collecting, and I really appreciate the discussion to guide me forward. Thank you all for your help and wisdom.

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Curt R.

Aurora, CO

USA

 

P.S.

The MFA collection is amazing!

[Brian]

I can only echo what Rich, Pete and Ted have said. These are not just opinions...they are facts, and trying to do it any other way is really taking the hard, long and expensive road.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Just a word for those who are not familiar with museums. On-line catalogs most often do not reflect what is 'on display' at any given time so it is advisable to find out what is on display prior to travel to avoid a costly disappointment.

[CurtisR]

Good enough, thanks Brian! I believe I'll just study for a good while before acquiring more. I still enjoy the persimmon Menuki though; my own outlook is that the lesser pieces can still be enjoyed as well...although (as the facts that have been given show) spending money would probably be better going toward higher quality works. I'm left wondering why people don't just throw the poorer works away (or melt them down) to keep only the cream of the crop in existence? Seems like it would make sense but maybe I'm missing something there, too.

 

Regardless, I'm learning a lot!

 

Curt R.

[Ted Tenold]

I would like to point out that there is always the option of buying pieces that you like regardless of their level of quality. The difference is knowing the difference before buying. I know plenty of knowledgeable collectors who buy a piece based on the fact that they just like it, knowing full well it's not a high quality piece. It's purely a matter of doing so with eyes wide open.

[Brian]

Was just going to say exactly that Ted. Nothing wrong with buying lower quality items. They can be good for mounting, or for making some money later on when you upgrade. Just as long as you know what you have, and know what better stuff looks like. Many of us have stuff other than top end (most of my stuff in fact) and I am ok with that...but I do know what I want to upgrade to oneday. Understanding the differences is the main thing.

 

As for the bit about getting rid of all lesser pieces out there...I surely don't have to answer that seriously do I? :lol:

Get rid of all humans not perfect....all motor vehicles not top of the range....all art not from a master.....the list continues. Ridiculous comment if i do say so....let's not even take that further here.

 

Brian

[BMarkhasin]

Curt,

I will echo the opinions of other members regarding this set of menuki, but its not a bad starting point - simple but authentic and meritous of some study, especially since they are your first. Most seasoned collectors have turned over their collections several times in efforts to upgrade or branch-out, and this will happen to you as well. Learn what you can, and move on to better pieces. Try to avoid ebay, as its full of misinformation and fakes. Go for some of the Japanese sites which offer good quality items with far less risk of acquiring something fake. Most of us started with Aoi Arts (see commercial lists on the NMB). Its a great place to acquire good entry to mid-grade pieces, and the descriptions often offer some good insights to kantei points as well, so you will learn as you shop. And definately try to attend a US show in the near future. Good luck.

 

Best,

Boris.

[CurtisR]

Thanks guys - I'm making plans now to attend the Florida show and know it will benefit me more than looking at pics, although Ill keep doing that as I go. I've found some other auction sites that appear to handle nice quality Menuki, some with papers or guarantees to pass Shinsa, etc. so will try to avoid the "ebay devil".

 

I wasn't serious about destroying the lesser works, but it was sounding as if they had NO value to many here, and so to test my theory (that most collectors have a piece or two of lesser quality but which the still like), I though I'd pose the question. I'd have been very worried if any of the wise and experienced members thought this was a good idea. I haven't been on the board long and didn't know how "extreme" the outlook was here on lesser works. I'm pleased to hear that most do have lesser works that they can still enjoy .

 

I'll keep on lurking and learning, and will get to the show in Feb!

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Curt R.

[Jean]

Curt,

 

Just to add that we are talking in the comparative mode, it all depends on what is the reference/standard.

 

A juyo kanteisho is of lesser quality than a Tokubetsu Juyo one

[CurtisR]

Jean,

 

Thank you! I just found some research sites explaining the difference (which I wasn't aware of) and really appreciate the hint. I'm going to try to absorb as much as possible before the show, and am excited go. I've also developed a source here for swords of different qualities & makers that I can study. As it's been said, it is better to have 'hands-on' experience!

 

Best,

 

Curt R.