Tosogo research questions help please

[edzo]

Greetings Members,

 

Q98 This Fuchi kashira is signed Hirochika and Kao. (Uchikoshi Hirotoshi, aka Hironaga School) late Edo. It is Shibuichi plate with high relief carved and inlaid copper, gold, silver and shakudo. Accordingly, Hirotoshi executed “Hiro” in the same manner. I guess my question is are they one in the same person or is Hirochika a student? If anyone is willing to respond, I am wondering what the zu depicted is or represents. I have been provided with signatures for a comparison and concluded this signature to be good.

 

Respectfully, Ed F

[christianmalterre]

Dear Ed,

 

this is what i found on Konishi-Line...(taken from Joly)

There are but no pictures of any Kanji or Seals...Perhaps this either way does help you?

 

Christian

[edzo]

Dear Christian,

I am very grateful for your effort, thanks very much, I hope I can return the favor some day. It appears that there was a Hojiusai Hirochika, obviously a student. I wonder if all the students signed the "HIRO", the same as the master. I will research it further and if u are interested I'll pass it on to you for your notes.

 

Respectfully, Ed F

[christianmalterre]

Dear Ed,

 

Oh-no problem at all here!-I should have definitely more on this subject-but have to browse mine books first-it´s just that i had the Joly next to me as i did an other research this morning...

Feel free to contact me via mail if you do need literature-references-i do have plenty of books here...

Christian

[Curran]

I thought I addressed this in the Translation section.

Hirotoshi had quite a number of students, most using Hiro in their signature.

Hirotoshi was a popularly forged signature, with about 7 out of every 8 I have seen being gimei- including at least one in a published America museum book. However I don't know if I've ever seen any of his student's work forged.

 

Flowchart can be found in the Baur book, under flowchart "Mito Part 2".

I won't be back any time soon, so maybe someone else will check it or scan it for you.

[edzo]

Dear Curran,

I regret that u feel your generous efforts to assist me was not appreciated or possibly being challenged?.

 

I will miss any scholarly input from you and regret u feel that way about me.

 

If u are interested, From the Transl. thread;

 

 

“I am traveling, ie. no books and I don't know this guy. Maybe someone else can look it up in Haynes and type or scan in the info. Hiro is the same version of the character as used by Hirotoshi (aka. Hironaga) and his dozen students in the Uchikoshi school. If someone has the Baur collection, they might see….”

 

“Going off Richter-san's examples from database, it looks good. Haynes 01300 ? Curious to look….”

 

I did not understand that all the students used the same “Hiro” version ( though, it could be read that way), and was continuing to research for his given name and time-line. Kept coming up short on the internet resources.

 

In any event, I’m sorry and remain in your debt for the valuable information you so generously provided me,

Respectfully Ed F.

 

I got server error message and was instructed to check and resend? sorry about the duplicate.

[Curran]

Ugh. Just trying to help newbie.

Surviving nearly two decades on trading floors and trading ops with guys so scathing in verbal abuse that it would be preferable any given day to take multiple soccer kicks to the manhood, I don't know if offense is possible for me in this kindergarten.

 

Ludolph was very helpful, yet I would think someone posted Haynes or confirm student relation in Baur Collection.

Yes, the Hiro with that sort of cursive feel does seem to be a distinct to school.

[edzo]

WHEW!!!, am I am relieved,

My vent is the arts, can't say I can relate (to your profession), but given the market over the past decade plus I think I understand. In any event I feel much better, thanks for the heads-up. Mr. Christianmalterre was good enough to share pages from the JOLY book that had a Hojiusai Hirochika listed. What I now know (not a lot, granted), is that the Hiro character as it applies to this school and is in a way a kantei point. Ludolph's post was awesome, wish I had ref material like that in hand and, I was impressed by your retentive skill and knowledge!

 

Thanks again Curran Ed F.

[docliss]

Dear Ed

 

Aware that you, through no fault of your own, rather got caught up in the flak from a previous posting, and notwithstanding that a previous thread has dealt fairly fully, with comments and illustrations, with Hirotoshi work, I am appending a few observations on the Uchikoshi school.

 

Uchikoshi Hirotoshi was a student of Yatabe Michitoshi, and later of Tamagawa Yoshinaga II. Marcus Sesko lists seven students of this artist on p.71 of his Geneologies of JapaneseTsuba and Tōsō-kinkō Artists, including Hirochika (H 01300.0), the presumed artist of your fuchi-gashira, all of whom used the five-stroke kanji for ‘Hiro’ 弘, Haynes, on p.278 of his Index of Japanese Sword Fittings and Associated Artists, lists this artist as of the Kondō, and later of the Uchikoshi family. He was a student of U. Hirotoshi and was working ca 1825.

 

There was an additional artist, not listed by Sesko, U. Hirotoshi (H 01416.0), who used a 14-stroke kanji for ‘Toshi’ 壽 rather than the seven-stroke kanji 寿 used by the master. His relationship to the master is unknown.

 

I hope that this has been of some help, John L.

[Curran]

Doctor Liss.,

Thank you for confirming.

 

Yes, stock and options markets has been like wading through severed limbs on the dance floor the past decade. Ed, no harm at all. You can call me Surely, you can call me Susan, or Betty, or Claudia.... but please don't call me 'Retentive' again. Flash backs to slang from 1980s movies.

 

While I'm at it, let us use more smiles to grab a beer and popcorn to see US Congress muffs it up this weekend. Tick tock tick tock prats legislating around the clock....

[edzo]

Dear Dr.Liss and Curran,

 

Thank You for your invaluable input. I am building a personal reference guide and making notes as a progress with my study. I am going to see if I can find the thread you mentioned because I find reading and following the treads on this site to be very revealing. And now after just recovering from a system crash, I'm going for a "cold one"!

Respectfully, Ed F.