Help witha Bizen Mei?

[KizuKazu]

Hi guys,

 

This is a nice piece but either very old so that the mei has worn down to be unreadeable, or expertly done to look that way. Either way, it's a very good piece. It's in standard gunto koshirae but the Japanese officer ripped his family mon off.

 

I get Bizen Iye something (Toshi) then Mi Something, something, something that looks like Mitsu but has a strong vertical stroke in the middle above the horizontal stroke so can't be Mitsu.

 

The date next to it must be an annecdotal day that something was done to the sword to be on the omote with the mei but I get Gen or Ten but nothing of the second kanji.

 

There is Bonji and crude kanji all over the place. I can't read that. There is Kazu as usually found in Kamakura Ichimonji Bizen swords but that is a little hopefull. The work does look like Kamakura Bizen or a very good copy of. The wear of the mei on the omote looks genuine.

 

The original mekugi ana is the top one. The lower one lines up for the shin gunto koshirae with silver to tightening the mekugi.

 

This blade looks like it has been polished once. There is almost no narrowing of the blade from nakago to polished blade proper. It looks like something that has been kept in the family for a very long time and not been used, like a family heirloom that was given to a son the family never expected to see again, hence the removed mon.

 

But it's easy to get carried away with "Whoa, maybe...".

 

It's an odd length of 22 1/4".

 

I know that some of the kanji are too worn down for anybody to read but I'm hoping that "Bizen Iye ? Mi ? ?" might mean something to someone.

 

Thanks guys.

[k morita]

Hi,

Shortened by Bizen IeXX by 9 centimeters("3 Sun").

This is "kiritsuke mei".

[Curran]

KizuKazu,

Love that name play there, but remember forum rules to sign with proper name.

 

This looks like a very interesting sword, with the bonji appearing well done on one side, not so sure on the other side bonji, and then that odd handwriting above what Morita-san has translated.

 

Would you be willing to share photos of the blade with us. Whatever the condition, it looks like it has had a long life.

[Ray Singer]

Appears to be Ietoshi.

 

Shortened by Bizen IeXX by 9 centimeters("3 Sun").

[KizuKazu]

Thank you Morita San. It's kind of bitter sweet as I'd hoped to discover the kaji but I knew the form of the 'mei' was strange. I've never seen a reference as to who shortened a blade before. I find this in itself interesting. I think this is certainly a piece for shinsa.

 

I thought Iyetoshi but there's just not enough of the kanji left to tell.

 

All the other writing has me baffled. I see at least three hands at work there.

 

I will try to post photos of the work in the blade but it is in faded polish. No kizu, rust, chips or sword cuts and doesn't appear to have lost any niku at all but it does look very old. Very old but never used.

 

Curran, I thought one could sign in using a 'handle' as in most other forums? I have looked at this forum many times and seen people posting with what is clearly not their real name. One seemingly very knowledgable person by the handle of 'Nobody', very unassuming and self-effacing.

 

Please advise and I will oblige.

 

KK

[Curran]

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6818

Nobody-san signs as he does, but autosign still gives his signature. Many or most of us have auto signatures. In fairness I should use my last initial too.

 

I like Bizen, especially O-tantos with good (or interesting) signatures. At the length you have given for the blade, I guess I was more curious about the shape. We've got the "Ichi" implying Ichimonji. We've got what looks like "Ichi XXX MuneMori"(? faint writing), which I have no idea what to think without hitting the books. Mine are currently about 1200 miles from here.

 

Quite the pleasantly casino (chaotic) nakago with an unusual signature dating the shortening of the blade. Infinitely more interesting than reading Business Law here at 10pm. I'm bored, and your nakago doesn't suck. Probably worth shinsa gamble at some point, though immediate gratification might be to see if NTHK still has that online service for some feedback. It won't be papers, but would green light whether to shinsa it.

 

Curran C.

[Jean]

Yes SB, we are not anonymous on this Forum so please sign all your posts according to the rules

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6818

 

Friendly warning before Brian acts

[KizuKazu]

Last time, I nearly missed what has turned out to be an excellent Kamakurra Bizen katana signed Kagemitsu due to Moss interjecting when I was trying to gain opinions on this site. The chances are that this is gimei, but if so, a professional gimei by an expert, as it is a very fine blade and looks like a Kagemitsu. It is signed katana-mei, whereas Kagemitsu uausally, but not always, signed tachi-mei. An expert gimei artist would know this. I tend to be lucky with swords. It may just be, but whatever it is, it is well worth the price I paid. The hamon is complex and tricky, just like Kagemitsu.

 

I've picked up some really nice pieces in the last few months. This Bizen kogatana is one of them. The nakago is really nice with a beautiful patina and in supurb condition, though being so worn down, it must have been held and admired many times over centuries.

 

I also picked up a Miyoshi Nagamichi. This is the second Miyoshi I've owned and fourth I've held, but the only one without loose hada. It is unquesionably genuine. This sword tells a grim story. When I purchased it, no attempt to clean it had occured since it was taken from the field in what must have been a bitter hand-to-hand struggle.

 

There were two semi-circles of dried blood encrusted around the monouchi - two stikes. There was more blood on the kissaki.

 

This sword must have been returned to the military saya without chiburi, something a Japanese officer would never do.

 

The good thing is that the blood was so thick, no oxygen could get to the blade, so it came off leaving little evidence. The sword must have been in new polish when taken to the field. The blood had dried on the blade before it had been returned to the saya, so it must have been left lying where it fell for some time.

 

A grim reminder of the true purpose of an art-sword.

 

KK

[Guido]

simonjbinks

David Blencoe aka Marked Hamon

KizuKazu

 

Do you want to set a record for most accounts by an individual on this board?

[KizuKazu]

No, I just want to be left in peace to discuss swords. As almost all forums use handles and I saw individuals here doing so (Nobody), I saw no harm in using one to avoid continual attacks by Moss, a person I have never met but who clearly bares a grudge against me because of my former fame in this country.

 

A lot of men envied us as we got all the girls - 20 years ago.

 

I had as many people come to my defence as those who picked up the conversations amidst my defending myself and joined the attack.

 

This is just a Japanese sword forum, we're not curing cancer here. I should be able to come here to discuss Nihonto in peace. I am more than able to defend myself but I shouldn't have to.

 

Is this going to start all over again? If so, I'll leave now.

 

Simon Binks

[sanjuro]

Simon.

(Without Prejudice). Actually, with statements like the following,

............ because of my former fame in this country. A lot of men envied us as we got all the girls - 20 years ago.

All you will succeed in doing is starting all that crap up again. Are we going to have to wade through FIGJAM Mk2? You brought up all this prior stuff. Perhaps if you 'let it be' then so will everyone else. Forget who you were or who you percieved yourself to be. Neither your former fame nor your former infamy has a place here. That was then, this is now. Now lets take it from the top nice and clean. Everyone deserves a fair shake.

Interesting sword with great possibilities........ Blade pics would be welcome.

[Jean]

Simon,

 

As far as I am concerned, you won't suffer and I will not tolerate any personal attacks from anyone on this Board, except on Nihonto topics, of course :D .

 

BTW, no sexual records are requested to register as we don't want everybody putting is CV on the Board and the only measurements allowed are Nihonto/kodogu ones .

[sanjuro]

Jean.

 

No measurements?????? And I was hoping to win the chicken raffle this year!

[Brian]

Myself and the mods will be monitoring closely. Anyone straying from the topic will be removed. Keep the past off the forum, keep on topic, and I'll keep others off your back. That is the last word on this, so back to swords.

 

Brian

[KizuKazu]

Perhaps nagasa is an issue.

 

In response to requests to post photos of the Ichimonji Bizen blade, I will try but these things are so hard to photograph.

 

I've just bought a new Nikon digital SLR and whist I know it should be the same as analogue, I'm having trouble getting my head around it. I was a published photographer years ago so have no excuse.

 

It's a very good piece and the polish is clean but old and faded.

 

I'll try my best but it will take a few days. I have to get lights, etc.

 

Someone mentioned contacting the NTHK regarding this sword. A reference to some light they may be able to shed?

 

Because of the quality of the blade, the bonji and amount of writing in at least three different hands, the fact that it doesn't seem to have seen any use, the Ichimonji kanji, the odd length for a sword which appears very old, I get the feeling this is something special. As stated in the original posting, this has the hallmarks of a family treasure, much admired but little or never used, hence the removal of the Mon.

 

This, as I understand it, only happened with swords from old, established families.

 

I will make some enquiries with the NTHK.

 

There is a Shinsa in Australia in September. I have at least 6 blades worthy of kantei.

 

 

Simon

[Brian]

Simon,

Not sure why you would find the removal of the mon at all strange? It was VERY common practice with many swords surrendered. Kinda like sparing the family from the shame of surrendering. Same with removing the chrysantheum from the receiver of surrendered Arisaka rifles. Nothing unusual at all, so I wouldn't use that as an indication of anything.

 

Brian

[KizuKazu]

I don't find it strange. I have heard much of this practice but have never had a blade where this had occurred. I just feel that this is a sign of a real Samurai family, as so many officers merely purchased swords to take to war as they did not come from Samurai families. I have heard the average price for a sword was about $300 at that time.

 

Swords were considered status for the officers. Many mons were just made up. Coming from a Samurai family was supposed to command more respect from the troops.

 

With the mon removed, this a good sign that this sword did come from an old Samurai family. There would be more important things on the minds of non-Samurai officers at the time of surrender.

 

The fact that it very old but seems to have never been used is further hope that this was a family treasure formerly held in high esteem, due to the number of times it must have been handled to remove so much niku from the nakago and obsure the mei, finally given to a son not expected to return by one of the more realistic old Japanese noble families.

 

Simon Binks

[george trotter]

Simon, I am not so sure that the removal of mon was an indication of a samurai family or of a man trying to avoid the shame of surrender being associated with the family name...my reason for saying this is that two of my swords had mon removed, but still had the officer's name and details written on them. Why remove the mon to avoid shame to the family, then put the family name and address (or rank and regiment) on the sword? I know that some surrenders were made with labels attached to swords by allied orders and some others were just handed in "as is". Mon have been found removed in both cases, but we don't really know much about reasons. While we generally believe that mon were removed or defaced prior to surrender, we have no real proof (that I have heard). One possible reason why some mon were removed is the eternal curiosity of the allied soldier...he may have just picked it off "because it's silver", or for some other misguided, unthinking reason...just a thought.

[sencho]

I don't find it strange. I have heard much of this practice but have never had a blade where this had occurred. I just feel that this is a sign of a real Samurai family, as so many officers merely purchased swords to take to war as they did not come from Samurai families. I have heard the average price for a sword was about $300 at that time.

 

Swords were considered status for the officers. Many mons were just made up. Coming from a Samurai family was supposed to command more respect from the troops.

 

With the mon removed, this a good sign that this sword did come from an old Samurai family. There would be more important things on the minds of non-Samurai officers at the time of surrender.

 

The fact that it very old but seems to have never been used is further hope that this was a family treasure formerly held in high esteem, due to the number of times it must have been handled to remove so much niku from the nakago and obsure the mei, finally given to a son not expected to return by one of the more realistic old Japanese noble families.

 

Simon Binks

 

Simon,

 

I think this is an entirely over romanticized view. There are generally far more simple and practical reasons for these things, than we Westeners often like to believe!

 

I would echo Georges post...

 

Cheers!

[sanjuro]

Under the cold light of informed analysis, little is known here. Provenance, ownership etc. are an unknown quantity, as is almost everything but the evidence of a nakago, of which we have a couple of intruiging photographs, and of which a partial translation has been provided.

All of the theorising and speculation proves nothing apart from reinforcing what is not known and can only be vaguely guessed at, while guesses and the airing of romantic notions concerning previous ownership and provenance add nothing to the sum of knowledge concerning this blade which we are yet to see. The fact that this may have belonged to a member of an old samurai family or otherwise will most likely never be substantiated. Perhaps it would be more prudent to await further illustrative material to reveal the nature of the blade, and what may be learned from that, rather than wandering around in a rosy haze of romanticised speculation.

[KizuKazu]

All very logical but not nearly as exciting. I tend to get excited by the thrill of the hunt — liberating these items from an unappreciated resting place, though this sword has been very well treated. Not a single finger print.

 

It'a like a puzzle with many possible solutions. It seems logical to me that only a true Samurai family would feel this shame so deeply to take all evidence of the shame for the family away. A non Samurai family with a made-up heritage would also be shamed but as they would have been living a lie with a fake mon, would not have a noble lineage to obscure and I doubt that they would think of this at such a time.

 

This would be why I've heard of this practice over the years but not had a single sword with the mon removed until now. I have had some very fine blades with mons from famous families still intact; an old Bizen tachi with a Mitsubishi mon, a Sashu Ju Masayoshi with a mon from a famous family I can't recall now but I've kept the tsuka (sold the sword).

 

This sword is a mystery. Very good blade of a strange length, bonji that I can't see as ever having been visible when mounted, writing in at least three hands, the date of the shortening recorded and silver used as filler in the mekugi-ana. This all points to something.

 

It looks like maybe a show piece or a shrine dedication. Yes, I give my imagination free reign but that's the fun of it and there is logic behind my thinking. Yes, I romanticise. I can't help it. It's my creative side. I have had some very lucky finds, so this fuels my expectations.

 

I found a Masamune once. I found a guy with about ten or fifteen swords. I could only afford/justify five. I tossed up between a very nice blade in somewhat gross elephant koshirae, brilliantly done but not shibui, and another very nice mumei tanto in beautiful ebi koshirae with matching kodugu, all signed including kodzuka and kogai, all in shakudo. There was also a Heiango Nagayoshi, a beautiful mounted mumei katana and a Soshu Tsunehiro. I chose the ebi koshirae tanto over the elephant mounted tanto. I can't remember what the fifth was. I heard later that the elephant mounted tanto went to another collector and it turned out to be Masamune. The katana was my first experience with hagiri.

 

That was almost 30 years ago and I'm still kicking myself. I never sent the ebi koshirae tanto to shinsa. It was in good polish; a very fine blade but I don't know by whom. I still think of it.The Masamune must have come from a wealthy merchant. No Samurai family would have ordered such gauche fittings, even though they were expertly done. At least, that's the only way I can get to sleep at night.

 

With such encounters, it's hard not to romanticise.

 

Simon

[Ray Singer]

Why do you feel that the length is strange? It does not seem all that unusual for an osuriage koto wakizashi. If the sword was shortened by 3 sun and was ubu before the suriage was done, the original length would have been appx. 65.6cm. Alternately, if the sword had already been shortened before the current most recent suriage then it is possible that the bonji was visible above the habaki. Rather than 'writing in at least three hands', I am seeing what may be an original horimono, an inscription added aside one column of bonji and a second set done at the time the sword was shortened.

 

Very good blade of a strange length, bonji that I can't see as ever having been visible when mounted

[KizuKazu]

As you say, original legth of about 65cm which is short for a katana of quality and this does have very good workmanship. I'm going to try to photograph it.

 

A lot of literarure will tell you not to look at swords of this length, as it can only be second rate. Then again, one may find just about any opinion on anything if they look hard enough.

 

One explanation is that it could have been a 'boy's sword', but this is a very good piece for a young man's first sword.

 

I have examined it closely many times and the original mekugi ana and the bonji don't seem to add up. It's quite normal to see bonji just in front of the machi, but there has to be room for the balance of the tsuka, fuchi, seppa, tsuba and habaki. It doesn't seem to add up in the flesh, unless it was never intended to be mounted, which would explain why a sword of great age has lost no discernable niku.

 

I see at least three hands at work; the shortening attestation and the date ascribed to it, the ichixxx mune(?) xxx + Ichi as in Ichimonji on the katana mune (or tachi omote?), one very good single bonji on the katana omote, a whole bunch of crude kanji and strange bonji (?) on the katana ura. The line of Ichi etc etc, is much more faded than the kanji attesting to the shortening. The kanji amidst the more crude bonji on the katana ura is just messy.

 

Had this been a boy's sword, this may explain the crude kanji/bonji and I shudder to think how he slept that night.

 

The single good bonji on the katana omote is one inch from the original mekugi ana, no room for a habaki, let alone fuchi, seppa and tsuba. There is a lot going on in this blade. It's hard to tell because of the faded polish but I will try to capture it on film, er, pixels.

[Mark]

i recall at a Chicago show, maybe 15 years ago i traded a Masamune for 2 Rai blades, i forget the Rai smiths but it was an intersting trade

[Ray Singer]

As you say, original legth of about 65cm which is short for a katana of quality and this does have very good workmanship. I'm going to try to photograph it. A lot of literarure will tell you not to lok at swords of this length, as it can only be second rate. Then again, one may find just about any opinion on anything for they look hard enough. One explanation is that it could have been a 'boy's sword', but this is a very good piece for a young man's first sword.

 

Some very good quality sue-koto can be found in this length, I have not seen literature that discounts a sword based on length alone, but regardless would not subscribe to that opinion. This would not be an appropriate length for a boy's day sword.

 

I have examined it closely many times and the original mekugi ana and the bonji don't seem to add up. It's quite normal to see bonji just in front of the machi, but there has to be room for the balance of the tsuka, fuchi, seppa, tsuba and habaki. It doesn't seem to add up in the flesh, unless it was never intended to be mounted, which would explain why a sword of great age has lost no discernable niku.

 

When you say niku, do you mean that the kasane is nearly the same along the nakago and at the mune-machi? This does not necessarily mean that the sword is not polished down, but rather may indicate that the kasane has not changed much since the most recent osuriage. My point is that the current nakago kasane does not tell you how thick the sword was when it was ubu.

 

The single good bonji on the katana omote is one inch from the original mekugi ana, no room for a habaki, let alone fuchi, seppa and tsuba.

 

The mekugi-ana closest to the bonji would be the later, rather than the earlier, ana. We know that the sword was shortened, so the ubu-ana would not be on the one furthest from the nakago-jiri. It is also possible that neither of the present mekugi-ana are original.

[KizuKazu]

Mark, we have corresponded before over an item on eBay. I remember the email address.

 

You knowingly swapped a Masamune for two Rai blades? Tell me it was a Masamune tanto in shirasaya for two Rai Kunimitsu Itomaki no Tachis.

 

Then again, I have done so many things I am still kicking myself for.

 

It's a continual learning curve.

 

I may be coming to the States soon on a vintage guitar/Nihonto collecting sweep. Just trying to work out the logistics.

 

It's a little more difficult than 6 states and two territories: seven major newspapers in Australia against 52 states in the US. I drove from NY to LA and lived in LA for a while but it was an in-between-collecting hiatus.

 

I've always wanted to do a sweep of the US but now that I have the opportunity, it's so hard to work out the logistics.

 

Simon

[sanjuro]

Speak to a travel agent..... Tell 'em where you want to go and how long you intend to stay there and leave the rest to them. How hard can it be?

[KizuKazu]

Raymond,

 

Yes, this does answer some questions/conundrums, but opens more. Losing 9 cm will take the machi below all mekugi ana. The top mekugi ana - the one closest to the blade, is the oldest on the sword. The Gunto tsuka uses the one below it, closer to the nakago-jiri. I know this is reverse to the norm but nothing seems to make sense on this blade.

 

Taking 9 cm off will put the Bonji in place but the nakago tapers in width dramatically. This means that if it were shortened in the 18th century, then the nakago must (might?) have been narrowed down at the same time. In that case, the patina should not be so dark. This still doesn't explain the great wear over centuries to reduce the nakago by constant kneading to make the kanji starting and ending with Ichi to be as worn as it is. Then there is all that messy bonji/kanji???

 

It's a riddle that doesn't translate well in short bursts of text. You really need to see the sword. I will take it to Barry Thomas and see what he has to say.

 

Simon

[Brian]

Yep...Barry is a member here, and will give us a good rundown on what he is seeing.

 

Brian

[KizuKazu]

Barry is an old friend and my mentor. He is the most knowledgable collector in Australia and one of the finest people I have ever met. We have known each other for about 30 years now - all my life as a collector.