Late WW2 Gunto

[David Clifton]

I have recently acquired, what I believe is a late WW2 Gunto ....but am a little confused as to the 3 ana. I am very new to Japanese swords, so please forgive me if I mistakenly quote Japanese terms.The measurements are...

 

The blade thickness (Kasane) is approx just a tiny bit more than 3mm (3.03mm = 1 bu)

 

The blade width (mihaba) is approx, but not less than 30mm (30.3 mm = 1 sun )

 

The kissaki to yokote is also approx 30mm (1 sun)

The Nagasa is 645mm ...so greater than 2 Shaku , therefore a Katana. I think I'm right in saying the length is 2 shaku 1 sun 3 bu ?

The tang (Nakago) is 23cms

 

The Sor (curvature) is Torrii Sori (curvature at centre)

It seems that many of the dimensions follow the 'old' measurements

 

No signature or markings. Saya is wooden with leather cover (type 98 ?) single suspension ring. The blade seems better than average quality and has obviously been re-fitted with this latest handle.

 

No tsuba, seppa or habaki

Kissaki looks reasonable, there seems to be some evidence of forging....in places looks almost straight grained (Masame ?) No obvious harmon not even an oil quenched one, but the blade has many scratches and is out of polish. The blade spine (mune ?) appears to be Ihori ie inverted 'V' profile.

 

The tang I believe is Futsu and the tang-tip Kurijiri.

 

Blade tip to 'step' (just before the tang) 65cm OAL 85cms Widest point 30mm approx. 3.5 mm thick.

 

All comments and information greatly appreciated, thank you

 

Kind Regards David

[Grey Doffin]

Hi David,

All 3 holes look to be recently drilled (old holes are often punched, not drilled) and the patina on the nakago looks suspicious, possibly artificial. I can't be sure but I wouldn't be surprised if this is a WWII era blade that has had its nakago altered to make it look older (and more valuable). A picture that shows the whole blade might help.

Grey

[Weidas]

it more looks like recent Chinese product...

[kusunokimasahige]

David, I hope you did not pay much for this one, this blade looks deceased.

 

KM

[David Clifton]

Thank you all for the quick responses....I have tried to polish this a little and couldn't see any obvious grain or hamon ...but an etch with vinegar shows a harden edge which runs full length of the blade. The blade seems tempered and holds a very good edge. The holes do not seem machined ...I will post further pics, including magnified photos of the ana .

 

Kind Regards David

[David Clifton]

More pictures....

[David Clifton]

Lastly a picture of part of the blade after a 'brief' vinegar etch...

[Grey Doffin]

David,

I'm sticking with my 1st opinion, a WWII era blade made up to look older.

BTW, if you ever get another Japanese sword don't try vinegar etch, polish, or most anything else. You are unlikely to do anything to improve the blade and very likely to do damage, maybe serious damage. Leave restoration to properly trained pros.

Grey

[David Clifton]

  Grey Doffin said:

David,

I'm sticking with my 1st opinion, a WWII era blade made up to look older.

BTW, if you ever get another Japanese sword don't try vinegar etch, polish, or most anything else. You are unlikely to do anything to improve the blade and very likely to do damage, maybe serious damage. Leave restoration to properly trained pros.

Grey

 

Hi Grey,

thank you for the reply. I collect Ethnographic weapons and I too, in my limited experience of Japanese blades do not believe this to be a Chinese 'fake' . AFAIK the seller sold this on behalf of a relative, who's husband had recently died. This sword was in his pocession for a good number of years and was one of three swords he had collected ....I bought all three (the other 2 were a British regulation pattern sword and a Kindjal, both of quality and over 100 years old )

The kasane being just over 3mm was a concern....at first...... but the blade is not flimsy and has only a little flex / springiness and shows a good 'temper'. The hardened edge follows the curve of the blade and I actually considered that it could be an 'inserted' edge ...unless the spine/back had been 'protected' by a clay mix when quenched ?

I also believe there are some 'cold shuts' in the blade....suggesting this blade was forged. My understanding is that the later WW2 blades were of very poor quality ....this blade IMHO does not seem to 'fit' that definition. However, with the lack of resources available to the Japanese towards the end of the war I did wonder whether a thinner blade (approx 3mm) was a solution for the lack of steel.

 

If blades were produced in Japanese occupied terratories ...perhaps this is a local smith's 'interpretation' of a Katana blade, made for the Imperial army using forging/quenching techniques used in the region. I have seen some WW2 era Dha swords with well made blades that have similar blade profiles to Katana. The Dha (dha lwe in Burmese and a darb or daab in Thailand) is a sword used by the peoples of mainland Southeast Asia, (present-day Burma, Thailand (exclusive of the Malay peninsula), Yunnan, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam, and in places like Assam and Bengal)

 

The leather on the wooden Saya shows genuine age ... as does the exposed wooden core. I think almost impossible to fake/reproduce and believe that this is genuine period. However, there is no guarantee that blade/saya were ever together during the war.

 

I also take your point that polishing/etches etc are best left to the experts....but I only did this when I was fairly certain that the blade was not Nihonto and had 'struck' a dead end when trying to discover its origins.

 

If anyone has any comments, advice or information I would be extremely grateful

 

Kind Regards David

[truelotus]

as a newbie, I may be wrong

 

but as I have seen before, could this be a sunobe abura yaki ire to ??

 

sword cut down, forged to shape and (oil quenched) ? in this form, the blade will not have any signature but will show some hamon and some activity, though it is not a gendaito :D

 

read this out

  Quote

1. Tamahagane gendaito. Fully hand forged and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

 

2. Mill-steel gendaito. Fully hand forged from mill steel or (more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

 

3. Koa-isshin Mantetsu-to. Made from Manchurian steel by a special process. Partly forged, partly engineered, and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

 

4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

 

5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

 

6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

 

7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada.

 

8. Tai-sabi-ko. Stainless steel, oil-hardened, no grain, no hamon, possible yakiba. Made for the Imperial Japanese Navy to resist salt corrosion.

 

9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword.

 

Only the tamahagane gendaito is considered traditional, i.e. a nihonto. All the rest, including the ‘mill steel’ gendaito, would have to bear a tang stamp. Whilst ‘mill steel’ gendaito can be very, very good indeed, the non-traditional group includes some pretty awful examples of swordmaking. As a result, the whole group tends to be known by the worst examples. This is probably unsurprising; the bulk of this group consist of oil-hardened blades (abura yaki-ire-to). That doesn’t mean that the entire group followed this pattern.

 

http://www.ryujinswords.com/shostamp.htm

[David Clifton]

Hi Donny,

thank you for the reply....I have checked out this web site before (link) ....it seems that there is not a lot of information on Gunto blades but this article is one of the best I've found so far. I have scrubbed the idea that this blade could be made by native swordsmiths in WW2 Occupied regions...it seems that although some 'katana' type blades were produced thet were not pegged to the handle ...so would not have ana . Oil quenched makes sense of the edge line produced by the vinegar etch ...I think the steel quality of this blade is quite good...and there seems to be some minor 'cold shuts' suggesting this blade was forged. The Kasane being a shade over 3mm seems unusual, many Gunto seem to be 5mm-7mm approx. I would guess that a thinner blade would be a better 'cutter' when used in tameshigiri ....were blades specifically produced for this ? And if so could this blade originally been produced for cutting and then later commandeered into military service ?

 

Kind Regards David

[cabowen]

This is a crude, late war, last ditch type weapon. It may be forged but it is clearly utilitarian-think machete not nihonto....It may or may not have been made outside of Japan.

[David Clifton]

  cabowen said:

This is a crude, late war, last ditch type weapon. It may be forged but it is clearly utilitarian-think machete not nihonto....It may or may not have been made outside of Japan.

 

Hi Chris,

thanks for the reply.....can I assume that this is, no matter how 'crude', a genuine Japanese millitary issued sword ?

 

Kind Regards David