Heavily damaged blade

[JGrinneiser]

Hi members,

 

I've been stalking this forum for a while now, and have been putting money aside in order to buy my first nihonto from a professional dealer, as per your recommendations.

 

This said, I was on holidays this week and found a few blades in the most unexpected location, a small antiques shop in a small city of Bretagne, France (I was looking for some 19th century pieces of furnitures, so I was quite puzzled).

 

Long story short, after half an hour of squabble over very damaged blades, I brought one with me in order to have a closer look at it. This one was sold as an 19th century wakizashi. The nagasa is 38.5 cm long, the nakago 11.5 cm with what seems to be kiri yasurime. The saya is made of wood, with the lower part being made of a dark metal. There must have been other metallic parts over the saya, but they have been taken away a long time ago.

 

What puzzled me is the 3 notches you can see just under the munemachi. Looking at the way the metal moved, it seems to have been made with a small blade/knife. Thusly, I wondered if there was a story attached to that blade, if it was genuine nihonto (and deserves a proper, new shirasaya), or if it was just a contemporary, cheap gunto, or even a forgery.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Bruno]

In Bretagne? Which city?

[Bruno]

The kissaki is pitted otherwise unless a dirty blade, it seems quite healthy to mee.

 

Any forging flaws (blisters etc...) that can be seen?

 

The saya is completly dead.

[JGrinneiser]

In Bretagne? Which city?

I will ask for it on the morrow (can't remember), but we were not far away from Vannes.

Edit: yup, Auray.

 

The kissaki is pitted otherwise unless a dirty blade, it seems quite healthy to mee.

Any forging flaws (blisters etc...) that can be seen?

 

Nope. The damages I can see, I would attribute either to dampness or bad "conditioning" (must have been kept upside-down for quite a while in a damp basement or something), plus some light scratches from mune to hasaki that might be due to steel wool

 

The saya is completly dead.

Word!

And full of rust, too. Hence my question about whether the blade is worth making a new saya for it...

[Surfson]

What is the shape of the mune? In one of the photos it looks squared off, which is not unheard of but rare. It may be the perspective, but if it is, it might be a concern that it's been shaved.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jess,

The mune is iore, and just fine. This is real Nihonto and may be salvageable if the pitting isn't too deep. Could be a decent blade; you should have someone look at it for you.

No idea what the notches at the top of the nakago are but I see them occasionally. Maybe someone else here will have that answer.

If the saya is full of rust probably best not to store the blade inside. I would jerry rig something to protect the blade until you decide what, if any, restoration will be done.

Grey

[Gunome]

Hello

 

the nakago 11.5 cm with what seems to be kiri yasurime.

I would rather said katte sagari

 

The saya is made of wood, with the lower part being made of a dark metal. There must have been other metallic parts over the saya, but they have been taken away a long time ago.

Your saya have a nice iron kojiri. It is a shame that it is in pitty state, because it is nice.

 

What puzzled me is the 3 notches you can see just under the munemachi. Looking at the way the metal moved, it seems to have been made with a small blade/knife.

These kinds of motches are common on nakago.

 

Thusly, I wondered if there was a story attached to that blade, if it was genuine nihonto (and deserves a proper, new shirasaya), or if it was just a contemporary, cheap gunto, or even a forgery.

This blade is not a gunto, but is not in good state. A new saya or shirasaya would have sense only if this blade got a new polish.

 

Sebastien

[Brian]

The one thing those notches are not, is what you may be thinking. We get this often here.

No, the Samurai never put notches into their swords after every conquest. This isn't the Wild West :lol:

Most likely to keep certain koshirae parts together (now long gone) or to mark a certain blade when the smith had made a few at the same time. Or other expanations, but no real story to them. The blade looks bad to me..condition wise. I wouldn't call it restorable because the level of polish it needs will likely cost more than it is worth after. But that is just my opinion, and I guess it needs a window opened first to see if there is anything worth polishing.

 

Brian

[JGrinneiser]

Thanks for your answers!

Here's a picture of the mune which is, indeed, iori.

 

Two more questions and I'm done (for now):

- is it possible to guess roughly the age of the blade? I was told 19th century, but the nakago being heavily rusted, I wonder if it could be older.

- what is the cause of the "ripples" you can see on the kisaki? Could it be a corrosive agent, traces of a faded hamon, or just marks left by age and water?

 

Best regards.

 

The one thing those notches are not, is what you may be thinking. We get this often here.

No, the Samurai never put notches into their swords after every conquest. This isn't the Wild West :lol:

:D

[gudis]

It looks quite beefy, BUT as someone else said there are pits and if they are too deep there is no way to get rid of them.

 

If you paid a lot for it, then its a shame to yourself to not see if there is anything to reveal under the rust.

If it was cheap then it will not be so hard for you. The polish cost quite alot if you didnt know.

[Bazza]

> - what is the cause of the "ripples" you can see on the kisaki? Could it be a corrosive agent, traces of a faded hamon, or just marks left by age and water?

 

The ripples, Dear Sir, are IMHO heavy corrosion caused by rusting. Even though unsigned I'm struck by the good sugata of this blade. A good shape speaks, at a first glance, almost above all else. If the blade has quality (I see an indication of sugu hamon) it may well be worth a polish. I have seen equally or even more severely rusted blades come through a polish and turn up trumps. Of course, all sorts of disasters may well be waiting in the steel, but... I know I'm not going to get back all the money I've put into polishing blades, but Nihonto are an ineffable and captivating Art that give much back in appreciation for money spent. And unlike large amounts of money spent on fine wine, Nihonto keep on giving without a hangover... Your sword needs to be seen "in the hand" by someone very knowledgeable. Do please keep us in touch with your ongoing findings.

 

With regard to the just previous email, some of our swords here back from Japan in a very bad condition "as found" have had a pit or two left in as the polisher kept the conformation intact. It is a small price to pay to bring a good sword back to life even if one would not wish the pits to be there.

 

Best regards,

Barry Thomas

(Melbourne, Australia.)

[JGrinneiser]

It looks quite beefy, BUT as someone else said there are pits and if they are too deep there is no way to get rid of them.

 

If you paid a lot for it, then its a shame to yourself to not see if there is anything to reveal under the rust.

If it was cheap then it will not be so hard for you. The polish cost quite alot if you didnt know.

 

I paid 148€ for the blade + saya, I think I can live with that

I was told polishing costs 20-25€/cm also, so yeah I know it can get quite expensive!

 

Barry, thanks for the heads-up.

I have the name of one or two gentlemen in Paris whom I will take the blade to, and ask for their expertise. I'll keep you informed!

[cabowen]

Polishing is always a gamble, sometime the odds are very long....This blade is, as other have noted, deeply corroded. It may polish out ok, or there may be some areas that are too deep to completely remove. Or, other, as yet unseen, defects may surface while the polisher is chasing the rust. Sometimes the result can not be known until the actual work commences....Normally, unsigned wakizashi are not financially viable polishing candidates. But some people place value, thankfully, on things not strictly financial, and restore these abused blades regardless.

[JGrinneiser]

Edit: discussion continues on another thread (for now).

[JGrinneiser]

So, I went to an antique dealer specialized in nihonto at the Puces de St-Ouen today, and he believes the blade must rather be from the Koto era.

Could be in Bizen style (maybe), but has definitely traces of hamon and a visible boshi (looks like midare-komi to me).

 

I should be seeing another dealer this week, so I'll keep you informed

[cabowen]

I would be surprised if this was indeed a koto blade....the shape appears to be more shinto....the sabi, at least in the areas where it is not overly corroded, appears newer, and it does not seem to have been polished down much....

[takakage]

Hi,

Yes, as says Cabowen a very strange koto blade.........

In France, in Paris city one of the most reliable antique dealer is H Serve Catelin.......

[Surfson]

Is Robert Burawoy still involved in nihonto? Wasn't he in Paris?

[Gunome]

Hello

 

Robert Burawoy was in Paris, but he now is retired.

[Jean]

I'll go for shinshinto, very very few polishes from the nakago picture. I fear the worse for the kissaki (always from the picture)

 

Mail me, we can meet next week one day after 17 h at home, we could discuss it and I'll show you some blades

[JGrinneiser]

Hi members,

 

Jean did me a huge favor by inviting me at his place. I'll pass on the beautiful nihonto I was allowed to behold, and get straight to the point: blade evaluation.

 

Jean believes the blade to be shin-shinto, and indeed it is quite beefy, meaning this blade has not seen much polishing. Plus, there are some nasty dents mainly on the kisaki which even with quite some work might still be visible.

 

All in all, the blade might no be worth the money that needs be invested for its restoration.

Still, I'll wait for our group reunion this fall in order to have our very own polishing sensei have a look at the blade, in order to know if it would be worth being polished on account of its artistic value.

 

[Gunome]

great !

[chrisf]

The notches may have been for re-assembly purposes,I have owned a number of swords with similar notches all with Satsuma Rebellion mounts where I guess swords were assembled as quickly and readily as possible from whatever fittings were available to hand.