The last word on cast iron tsuba

[Toryu2020]

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/equipment/ts036.html

 

Not trying to start a fight here,

 

Take a look, this is not the same tsuba but could easily be the same mold. If the Hozon Kai can appreciate these in spite of being cast, why can't we?

-t

[Thierry BERNARD]

another sample : one of my namban tsuba and the same in one book, even seppa dai carving is the same!!

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Thomas

 

Take a look, this is not the same tsuba but could easily be the same mold.

They are clearly from the same workshop but when you compare them carefully, side by side, you'll not find any correlations in the surface design and the actual outline of the guards are very different. The measurements given are different also so I can't see any evidence that suggests they came from a mould at all and even less that they came form the same mould.

 

If the Hozon Kai can appreciate these in spite of being cast, why can't we?

Why do you think the NBTHK regard these as being cast?

 

Actually, this does raise an interesting thought. Can anyone point to any steel tsuba that does show clear signs of having been cast and that has papers from the NBTHK or any other organisation in Japan.

[Toryu2020]

Ford -

What of the "bubbly" surface of the two examples from Tsuruginoya? What about the missing pieces from the rim of the first example? Does the rounded feeling of the seppdai and other features not suggest casting? I thought these were the tell-tale signs?

 

Thierry -

Would you be willing to share photos of the rim of your very nice example?

 

-t

[Thierry BERNARD]

Thierry -

Would you be willing to share photos of the rim of your very nice example?

 

-t

 

sure! as soon as i will be at home!!

[Mark Green]

For those of you who haven't seen this.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tsubacastiron.html

 

The primary reason that cast iron was not used in period tsuba from Japan. I would tend to believe Fords example.

Why would any tsuba maker even think of making something out of a inferior metal, that could spell death for some sword owner. You wouldn't stay in business long.

 

Some of my friend have said that Copper/shakudo/shibuichi/sinchu are very inferior to iron tsuba.

NUTS I say. Take an axe to any of these plates, good luck chopping through any of them. But, even the best cast iron is likely to break.

And most kinko tsuba were made for the art. You wouldn't slip on your Goto, to ride off to war.

 

This is not really about proving a negative. There are MANY thousands of period tsuba, but we seem to be having great trouble finding even one example of a period cast iron tsuba. Even among the tsuba made of foreign iron. The evidence is surly mounting.

 

Mark

[Soshin]

Here is a cast iron Nanban tsuba reproduction I sold on eBay as a cast iron reproduction of a Nanban tsuba that I purchased a while ago. I sold it for about $10.00 USD.

I don't think real antique Nanban tsuba were made of cast iron. Mostly for the reasons outlined above. Some might have a look of being cast iron but that is likely just because they are made from wrought iron from foreign sources back in the Edo Period. Again just my two cents on the topic.

 

 

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

Ford -

What of the "bubbly" surface of the two examples from Tsuruginoya? What about the missing pieces from the rim of the first example? Does the rounded feeling of the seppdai and other features not suggest casting? I thought these were the tell-tale signs?

 

-t

 

I only saw one example you linked to at Tsuruginoya and that one seems perfectly straight forward in terms of what it is. A carved and inlaid/overlaid plate of ferrous metal. No sign or hint that it might be cast.

 

Namban tsuba were very popular, they were worn by members of the Buke

Many appear to have been cast (see example above)

Many appear to have been manufactured before the Restoration (hence the papers)

 

Whilst we are still looking, the ease with which an uneducated lout such as myself has finding these examples suggests a little more serious searching and we are likely to find "made in Japan" cast tsuba of the right period.

I'm sorry, but you haven't found any certain examples of Edo period cast tsuba at all. What you keep pointing to are examples that you say "appear" to be cast and this very claim is then then undermined by your own admission that you are uneducated in this field.

 

Thomas, have you read through my argument as to why I maintain that cast iron/steel tsuba are modern copies? From my perspective it seems to me to be a case of putting the cart before the horse when we try to use any tsuba that "looks" like it might be a possible example of an Edo period cast iron/steel tsuba. First we have to establish, independent of the tsuba themselves, that this technology was available and used by tsuba-ko.

 

I've been looking, and here I will claim a certain degree of professional expertise if you'll allow me , very closely at Japanese metalwork for at least 25 years now (with a total of 30 years experience as a metalwork artisan) and while I hope I don't sound too cock-sure here there's not much in this field that I see nowadays that is new to me. So when I say that in my, considered, opinion this notion of cast iron tsuba in pre-modern times is not supported by any evidence I'm saying so from the basis of a pretty thorough grasp of the subject. I genuinely hope I don't sound rude or condescending but I can't keep providing critiques of every speculative example that is presented....I'll be here forever :?

 

I note that you're a serious practitioner of classical Japanese budo so I hope you'll appreciate an attitude from my own classical background that is equally applicable in yours. One I am sure you are possibly well versed in.

In a traditional setting apprentices are not expected to ask questions. They are expected to steal what they need with their eyes. Last week, while with a blacksmith friend of mine in his forge and being interviewed for a local documentary film, we discussed exactly this aspect of learning a craft. When the student asks a question he will be unable to fully comprehend any answer that he might be given and when he can appreciate the answer he will no longer be in a position where he'll need to ask the question. To put it bluntly, too many words and too much speculative (ie; ungrounded ) thinking and not enough focussed seeing. I will take this concept further still, at the risk of offending some sensibilities , knowing all the labels, terminology and categories does not ensure you really accurately perceive the pieces that concern you.

 

Please don't take this as a personal criticism, it's not intended that way. It just occurred to me to make this point, here and now (it's been on my mind for a while) because this whole issue of iron casting tsuba seems to be a perfect example of how easily we can all get lost in speculation that is not based on any substantive evidence nor follows rigorous logic and reasoning.

 

I would point to my signature tag at this point

 

 

And with that I realise I have finally painted myself into a corner such that I cannot continue any more conversations on any aspect of Japanese metalwork or art on this forum. I'll stick to essays, books and films instead. he...I might even go fishing.

 

How profoundly prophetic was the title I gave this thread? :D

 

Sayonara all and best regards

 

Ford

 

Cheers, Sir Mark , for your confidence in me

[Toryu2020]

Dear Ford -

Very sorry If I am the one pushing you over the edge here, not my intent. I should be very sorry to lose your valuable insight from these forums as I am sure would others. You did throw down the gauntlet as it were, and as I am not a student in your forge I have no other way to learn but to posit questions. My apologies also for two examples from Samurai Shakai and one from Tsuruginoya. I get ya brother no need to respond.

 

Can someone who is not Ford tell me what exactly it is we are looking for? A fair example of a cast tsuba that is signed and dated (in Japanese)? An unbroken unused mold? A complete koshirae with cast fittings? Authoritative writings in Japanese? I have no need to prove the point either way, I think it a very interesting question, something new to these forums for a change and I was enjoying exploring the possibilities. OTOH can anyone suggest why there would be a sudden boom in casting thousands of tsuba of poor quality, with obvious continental sensibilities in the years following the Restoration?

 

-t

[Ford Hallam]

Thomas,

 

it wasn't your question that has prompted my withdrawal I simply have too much to do and while these discussions are often fruitful there comes a point were I find myself repeating my views ad nausium. It's the nature of forums, rarely are ideas and thoughts archived here as part of a coherent theory or knowledge base. What I've decided to do is to spend my energies collating my ideas and theories (with solid evidence ) in the form of essays and I'll eventually include these in my book on Japanese metalwork.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[sanjuro]

So is this your swan song Ford? If so, I for one will surely miss your insights. There has been some great discussions and I have learned a great deal from your contributions.

[ububob]

I will miss benefit of your experience but I will also look forward to the book.

[Curran]

Thierry- the two tsubas are relatively identical, but have some distinct differences in certain details. Different designs at the end of the radial spokes, etc.

 

Tom- that is a rather popular Namban design that I've seen in different sizes and shapes. I don't think it cast, though iron isn't very nice. I've held Namban I thought cast but weren't (ahem.... no comment, live n learn.) I have seen NAMBAN that I more certain are cast, but they have all been either distinctly dock work grade, or those heavily of Indo-China influences and possibly materials. I believed Dr. L has mentioned the importation of tsuba into Japan, if we were to review his book.

 

Personally, I would expect some pre 1800 cast iron tsuba to pop up. In experience, I just haven't seen any outside of the Namban group that were pre 1800s. I can't say they don't exist. I can say that there is an almost entire 'lack' of those with age on them outside of the Nambans.