The last word on cast iron tsuba

[Ford Hallam]

As many of our members here will know the notion that tsuba were cast in steel or iron in the Edo period, or earlier, is a proposition I regard with complete derision. Recent "discussions" with an unfortunately misguided young fellow on another forum have prompted me to quote the words of a gentleman who was one of the first Europeans to travel to Japan and report back on her various technical achievements.

 

That he was related to a personal hero of mine, Sir Richard Burton, and evidently shared his relation's independent strength of character is, for me at least, of great significance.

 

Cpt. Francis Brinkley arrived in Japan in 1867 and remained there until his death in 1912.

 

This from Brinkley's "A History of the Japanese people" (1915)(vol 7, p 256)

 

 

"It maybe well here to dismiss, once for all, a theory sometimes advanced by writers in Europe that many of the elaborate guards of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries were of cast iron.

That cast-iron guards had no existence cannot be affirmed ; they may sometimes have been made for weapons of the most inferior description. But the Japanese themselves deny that cast iron was ever regarded as a suitable material for a sword-guard, its liability to fracture being a fatal objection. The connoisseur, and every samurai was something of a connoisseur in matters concerning his sword, attached more importance to the tempering of the metal than to the fashion of the ornamental chiselling, and in every record of great armourers skill in forging iron heads the list of their achievements. ..."

 

I will readily concede that this is hardly conclusive or emphatic proof but I quote this with the challenge that if anyone would care to suggest the opposite they will need to present some fairly convincing and relevant material to allow for a reassessment of what we presently take as understood.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

I am of the opinion that the vast majority Edo Period and earlier casting was done for soft mental (kinko) tsuba such as the kagamishi school which often used Bronze and Yamagane. In additon to the strength question wasn't it also not possible to generate the necessary heat in a cost effective manor using massive amounts of charcoal to make many cast iron tsuba? In Robert E. Haynes new book Study Collection of Japanese Sword Fittings. He sites a rare example of a cast iron tsuba on page 167 made during the late Edo Period by a tetsubin-shi a caster of iron tea kettles from an original tsuba by Munetoshi of the Myochin school. I think this tsuba is a very rare example and not at all representative. The vast majority of cast iron tsuba are from the Tasho Period and later and had no functional use.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Steve Waszak]

Thanks, Ford... A very interesting excerpt. Your posting it is much appreciated. The sentiments expressed there make perfect sense to me. Besides the technical aspects involved in the casting-of-iron-tsuba question, to me, the idea that a culture (or any prominent individual craftsmen thereof) as profoundly focused on the hand-made would toss aside the mastery achieved over centuries of iron/steel forging in favor of brittle, porous, "quick-and-easy" casting is one that is abundantly unconvincing. The Momoyama and early Edo periods are times in Japanese cultural history when exquisite quality in hand-made craftsmanship across a wide variety of media and objects was at its zenith. For something as culturally important as the tsuba of a bushi, it is inconceivable to me that cast-iron guards would ever have been acceptable.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Henry Wilson]

I have no knowledge of metal science so pardon my blatant lack of knowledge.

 

In the field of tosogu, why is casting acceptable for soft metal but not iron?

[sanjuro]

Steve et al.

 

OK I confess ignorance right up front, and the following comment is made for the sake of intelligent discussion and not the airing of private passions. I am afterall a blade man or more correctly a sword man rather than a fancier of the disembodied parts of a sword. I do like tsuba and have a few modest examples, but I do not view them in isolation as some sort of cultural thermometer. Perhaps my view of 'tsuba cultism' is somewhat shallow. :D

 

For something as culturally important as the tsuba of a bushi

 

Culturally important? I would concede aesthetically important. I would agree to artistically important. But culturally, as far as I can discern, the tsuba has no more cultural importance than any utilitarian item of any period in that it is to a degree, a mirror of the times in which it was made. I think its fair to say that most tsuba were in fact produced as utilitarian items, since the vast majority are fairly plain.

I find Edo period examples (ko kinko) are a difficult class of tsuba because many were produced that were not necessarily intended to be mounted.

I am however open to enlightenment and if you deem it necessary, a restrained level of abuse concerning my ignorance. Please be kind gentlemen. I am after all one of your number.

As far as cast iron tsuba are concerned, and speaking from a practical point of view, cast iron is too fragile to be considered as an effective material for a tsuba. It is by far, too porus (hence brittle) and prone to fracture. Forged iron, steel and even cast copper have a certain amount of 'give' and will not fracture anywhere near as easily, although copper would be a second choice from a practical point of view, purely from the point of it being a soft metal by comparison.

OK..... Fire away. :D

[christianmalterre]

Dear Gentlemen,

 

Oh-please No!-not again this "neverending" "Cast-Religion" here again.

I do not know how many times already this all discussion did arise-but it seems-it may still be of some "mind" importance?

For those still "shaking" -please read Prof.Cynthea J. Bogel then!

 

One private thing in addition:

Find me an Real Cast Iron one from Muromachi/Momoyama/early Edo-and i´m very shure we(both) would come in business here!

Just mine two cents(!)...

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

David,

 

I think we would all agree that those early examples we describe as being kagamishi products are cast. Bronze alloys, in general, don't lend themselves to being forged but yamagane works like copper so where we see relatively simple yamagane tsuba, pierced plate with added rim etc. I don't think casting needs to be cited as a method of manufacture. In fact forging an ingot into plate and working from there would be more efficient and straight forward. The resulting metal would also be stronger than an "as cast" plate.

 

I'd love to see this example that Mr Haynes presents Any chance of a scan of it as well as the text that describes it?

 

Hi Steve, I thought you'd appreciate this As I say it's not "case closed" (it's impossible to prove a negative :? ) but it does illustrate something about the sensibilities of the culture we're looking at and I think we need to be far more conscious of this sort of background when hypothesising.

 

Henry,

 

as you know the Japanese crafts systems, which were pretty much well established by the Muromachi period, defined the work and processes of each crafts very tightly. Kinko does not utilise any form of casting to create the initial forms. It would have been technically possible but there are very significant reasons why an as cast surface on soft metals is un-acceptable for iro-e and fine inlay. Think of porosity ( tiny bubbles) for example. Even with the very sophisticated casting processes we have today in the jewellery industry the casting of traditional alloys into a fairly finished form is still results in a product that lacks the qualities we expect from decent period work.

 

Many of you will have seen how I cast copper alloy ingots into water and then forge them into usable plates. I believe this was a fairly standard workshop practice but I should also point out that flat plate ingots (of no thinner then 4mm thick) could be cast into a 2 part closed mould. Shinchu alloys need to be cast this way as they don't stand up to extensive forging and I've learned that shibuichi can be more readily processed this way too.

 

Interestingly, it can be established fairly conclusively, simply by examining the surface structure of the metal, whether or not it was cast in it's final form or to what degree it has been cold worked. These precess even alter the colour that develops in the patina.

 

Personally, I don't think casting is acceptable in kinko work. In the book "Conversations with craftsmen" (Nihontô shokunin shokudan) one of the older metalworkers interviewed tells of his memories of Unno Shomin. We learn how Shomin explained to him that the philosophy of kinko workers just wouldn't allow for them to take the "easy option" of casting. There was a fierce pride in their skills that ensured that any workshop that employed "lesser" processes and placed commercial efficiency above the integrity of the craft would soon be pushed to the edges of the established craft world.

 

Keith,

I've never been completely convinced that tsuba were mainly utilitarian. This is something I wrote a while back; "the tsuba "functioned" in all periods, to display the status, cultural refinement and personal taste of the wearer. It also allowed for political loyalties and philosophical concerns to be signalled. It was in these contexts, that the tsuba as an art form expressive of the time and group who used them, developed." In this light I think it is clear the tsuba was an artefact that was at the heart of the warrior culture, a mirror, in many ways.

 

regards to all,

 

Ford

[Soshin]

David,

 

I think we would all agree that those early examples we describe as being kagamishi products are cast. Bronze alloys, in general, don't lend themselves to being forged but yamagane works like copper so where we see relatively simple yamagane tsuba, pierced plate with added rim etc. I don't think casting needs to be cited as a method of manufacture. In fact forging an ingot into plate and working from there would be more efficient and straight forward. The resulting metal would also be stronger than an "as cast" plate.

 

I'd love to see this example that Mr Haynes presents Any chance of a scan of it as well as the text that describes it?

 

Hi Ford,

 

Thanks for the information about Yamagane and I was thinking it was similar to Bronze but I will defer to your technical and "hands on" knowledge. Here is a direct link to the tsuba itself on the web with detail photos: http://www.nihonart.de/scripts/loupe/en_detail.php?id=171&titel=167a. Here is a scan of the text. I am not a advocate for thinking that cast iron was used in pre-modern Japan for tsuba but just wanted to provide some information that I came across in my study. Here is a back and white scan of the text discussing the tsuba.

 

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Bugyotsuji]

Before we start going around in circles, please see this thread from the end of April:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10307

[Ford Hallam]

Hi David,

 

thanks very much for that.

 

I have to say I'm disappointed that Mr Hayes seems to omit providing any evidence for his claim though. He simply asserts that it's a cast tsuba made by a tea kettle caster. This is a copy of an original Myochin work with the mei being also reproduced . I'd be fascinated to learn what technique this "unknown" kettle caster used to create an accurate wax model of the original Myochin tsuba. I doubt he had access to vulcanised rubber mould and a wax injector.

 

To me it seems that if we apply Occam's handy razor we're left with a far more plausible explanation. This is simply a modern cast steel fake.

 

Mr Hayes also tells us the charcoal used to heat the metal, presumably he means to melt it, was rare and very expensive. I don't think anyone can claim it was rare at all. Practically every sword and tsuba forged was done so in a charcoal forge and every tatara was fuelled by charcoal. While it may have been expensive it certainly didn't make it in any way particularly rare nor was it's use limited. In a country covered with mountainous forests charcoal as a fuel was big business.

 

Sadly, it is exactly this sort of vague rationalisation that continues to muddy the water. Having said that I think Mr Hayes book looks to be a very valuable reference work in terms of good examples, the present piece accepted.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nothing to do with the price of fish, but I ran across this expression today. What is 'malleable cast iron'?

[Ford Hallam]

Piers, it's a form of cast iron that's been subsequently treated to render it less brittle.

 

Here's description of the traditional Japanese process.

 

and some info on cast iron on Wikipedia.

[christianmalterre]

Dear Ford

 

here you may find the "seeking" answer...

(i but,already did mention this above)

there´s more info available,too-yet,but not published officially till yet!

Mr.Haynes is 100% Right in this Thesis and Statement-that´s all i can say actually.

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

Yes, it's well known that certain Buddhist implements were cast in iron pre-Edo period. This does not mean you can then just make a wild leap to saying that therefore tsuba were cast as well.

 

This is a book about Mikkyo Buddhism, this from the product description on Amazon

"With a Single Glance considers the visual culture of the Japanese esoteric Buddhist tradition, Mikkyo, at the time of its introduction to Japan early in the ninth century. Huge painted mandalas of assembled colorful divinities, hand-held gilt-bronze vajra, and statues on temple altars were more than ritual aids. Cynthea Bogel demonstrates that the visual and visionary impact of Mikkyo material culture was transformatory, not only to the adherent, but at a broad cultural level. Her finely crafted study illuminates the sea change marked by Mikkyo visuality in Japanese art history and suggests continuities with eighth-century Nara Buddhist forms of representation and praxis."

 

I have no idea how this is supposed to provide any reliable evidence that Japanese tsuba-shi cast iron tsuba...unless they used Mikkyo magic :D

 

Honestly, all this leaping about making speculative "connections" is making me dizzy. In the words of Christopher Hitchens "that which is proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

 

I give up....if people want to buy fakes cast steel tsuba who am I to try and stop them.

 

so long, and thanks for the fish.

 

fh

[christianmalterre]

Dear Ford,

 

this is correct what you write!

Please but do calculate,that an such study had not ben possible to work out-without the needed knowledge in metallurgical researches to be done.

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

Christian,

 

I very well aware of the state of research in the field of pre-industrial metalwork. This is why I will keep asking for some real proof not hints and vague guesses. I'm also well aware that not all published research is accurate also, particularly in terms of various assumptions and deductions that are cometimes drawn.

 

I've seen loads of metallurgical analysis' and even been involved in some studies at the British Museum myself. Whether or not the book you cite was written taking some metallurgical research into account ( and you are only guessing that it was, I don't see where it was needed at all) it is still not in any way relevant to the matter of cast iron tsuba.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Keith,

 

Sorry to come back to the discussion a bit late here...

 

I think Ford actually sums up quite well what I would say about tsuba as objects holding and expressing important cultural sensibilities, affiliations, beliefs, and so on. The semiotic function of tsuba is not something that can be dismissed nor ignored when seeking to appreciate what these objects "were." To do so is to say that semiotics has no place in academic/philosophical inquiry, and I don't think such a claim would hold up very well... I would add, too, that the artistic and aesthetic value you see present in tsuba is a cultural matter, and is so in a major way. Perhaps it is a matter of defining the word "culture"?

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[kaigunair]

facinating thread, and hope that there will be more conclusive research done to verify the truth of the matter. I read the other thread on the "Dai" shapped tsubas that were cast. Are there other verified cast examples?

 

as a humble theory, might I suggest that there was a more practical reason for cast tsubas, esp in pre-edo times? Similar to dotanuki style blade, mass wars = mass armies = mass need for equipment. While signaling status was import for higher ranked samurai, the need wasn't the same for all "warriors", esp the lowely ashikagas. It was better to equip these ranks with a poorly made tsuba/sword than with a cut bamboo pole in an era of many battles. This has the dual effect of boosting one's own ashikaga moral, as well as being a more intimidating factor on the battlefield....

 

Since lowely foot soldiers (and those promoted from the non-samurai family ranks, so still front line) may not have had a high survival rate nor were skilled practitioners, the strength of the tsuba is less important. Also, if many of the known/accepted cast tsuba designs are similar, could be indicative of certain particular daimyos or regions who found it beneficial to go this route (like the standardize armor design of the Date clan).

 

Later on, if not "upgraded" by the ashikaga turned samurai, such tsuba could have been melted down to make cannons, teppos, or the bullets....

 

This would assume that the pre-edo cast tsuba's being discussed were of more simple design. Still, if there are more elegant examples, if the basic shapes are based on the simple/original designs, then it could indicate the period cast tsubas might have been later modified during the edo period to add "flair" and meet market demands for more "art" pieces.

 

 

My $0.02 regarding practicality of the times vs/ practicality of usage...

 

Would love to see more examples and pictures.

[Steve Waszak]

Just a couple of quick thoughts here in response...

 

It seems doubtful to me that such low-quality guards would survive the 400+ years since then in any condition, much less a "presentable" one. I would think that, if such a guard did exist, and did survive till today, it would present as a rust-encrusted blob, rather than as a would-be collectable tsuba. Given the climate in Japan, anything made from iron/steel would need considerable care not to become rusted over. And if such a cast-iron tsuba were made then (assuming the technology was there), and if it did become heavily rusted (after all, why would someone care for such a low-quality piece over generations of time?), why would anyone bother to clean and collect such an item? It appears unlikely to me that this would be the case...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Soshin]

I would agree with Steve's points. Japan's climate isn't at all friendly to anything of iron more or less a cast tsuba and if the skill and craftsmanship and artsitic value weren't there in the first place the tsuba wouldn't be taken care of and would quickly be heavily damaged or destroyed if not originally destroyed by use. I think the weapons include poorly made swords of the ashigaryu and ji-samurai of the Sengoku Jidai are no longer with us and are lost to history. Still extant historical records indicate these swords and by extension the tsuba as well as other weapons were very poorly made and show very little if any artistic value. Just think all those swords in movie Seven Samurai hoarded by the farmers and used by the Samurai and farmers trying to save the village. The movie is set in the Sengoku Jidai if I remember correctly.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Bugyotsuji]

Well I have seen poor quality cast tsuba covered in lacquer. Presumably the lacquer was designed to do the rust prevention.

 

As to the climate in Japan it is at its worst right now. Depressing...

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

 

Very interesting topic.

 

Just a thought.------ This weekend, while Jesus And I were making iron, we ended up making a small amount of cast iron. That was under a monster bloom.

If I had an open mould ready, I could have placed this, not liquid, but very melted plastic like iron, in this mold, and made a tsuba blank. After reading the start of this thread, I went out to the shed to see just how fragile this cast iron was. IT WASN'T!

It would likely make a fine tsuba, or at least something different.

So, I suppose it is possible that some kettel maker/armorer/want to make a tsuba guy, could have made a few cast iron tsuba that would hold up. I'm not saying, any self respecting samurai would have mounted it. But it could have been done.

I have no idea when the iron kettle guys did a lot of work. Seems like some were Edo.

Japanese iron would be very much like the iron that I make. The composition of the iron sands are very much like my local ore. The cast iron is not like the western white iron, it is much more like the gray iron or puddling iron made in the early days of iron production in the US. Very high carbon, but not brittle like the white iron, used to cast bath tubs, and sinks.

I have no document to prove it one way or another. And IF it was done at all, it was likely very rare for reasons Master Ford stated above, but, It is possible that some guy wanted to make a tsuba out of the metal he was making.

I would have, had I known I had this material coming.

Just a thought.

 

Mark G

[kaigunair]

Well I have seen poor quality cast tsuba covered in lacquer. Presumably the lacquer was designed to do the rust prevention.

 

As to the climate in Japan it is at its worst right now. Depressing...

 

I'd love to be in Japan again! I've heard Hokkaido is the place to be in the summer (edited original post due to a slight flub which I did not intend).

 

But yes, a lacquer coating would do it, like on gusoku. Also, I'd be hesitant to dismiss based on an assumption that cast iron doesn't last. More likely they were recycled for other things, than left to rust away. I'm surprised at what things "last" when they shouldn't, esp paper and fabric items.

 

But again, was just a thought I put out there....

[Ford Hallam]

Gentlemen,

 

I'd just like to reiterate what I've been saying all along. We can speculate and come up with all manner of theories as how or why cast iron tsuba MIGHT have been produced but the fact is there is no real evidence that they did.

 

Please remember the fundamental difference between "it's possible" and "it's probable"

 

More specifically it worries me that so called "evidence" such as the examples Mr Hayes has published in his new book as being cited as proof that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. That the weakness in this assertion and the complete lack of solid evidence, or even reasoned explanation, doesn't immediately tell everyone that this is nonsense leads me to believe that Mr Haynes words are being accepted merely on the basis of his reputation. A few moments of informed critical thinking easily dismisses this notion.

 

This is not a clash of two opposing theories either. It's not a matter of "did they" or "didn't they". In the absence of any convincing evidence, apart from the object itself, the default position has to be "they didn't". Anyone who wishes to suggest that MAYBE they did cast iron tsuba in Edo Japan must assemble some evidence before the notion can be called a theory. If this evidence stands up to examination and is convincing then we can begin to reassess what we thought.

 

Until this is shown to be a plausible theory my fear is that obvious modern cast steel fakes are being sold to collectors as being something special. This is an absurd position and one that may seriously undermine the credibility of further amateur research in this field.

 

I'm grateful that many of our more thoughtful members are able to recognise that the whole idea is unsupported by the facts.

 

So until someone can show some real evidence regarding this idea I've said all I want to.

 

regards to all,

 

Ford

[kaigunair]

Until this is shown to be a plausible theory my fear is that obvious modern cast steel fakes are being sold to collectors as being something special. This is an absurd position and one that may seriously undermine the credibility of further amateur research in this field.

 

I'm grateful that many of our more thoughtful members are able to recognise that the whole idea is unsupported by the facts.

 

I definitely agree with that there are many pitfalls for the new nihonto collector. Threads like this are very helpful sources of knowledge to new students such as myself. I appreciate them greatly. Now I think perhaps it would have been better to just read....

 

Having been interested in nihonto since I was a child, the biggest hurdle for me was and is finding a good place to learn. Having been on various other forums for years, and active around here now for a few months, this forum is the one where I tread most lightly, feeling as if I'm walking "on egg shells". Not exactly the friendliest or for the thin-skinned. That may be one of the hurdles for generating true interest in nihonto vs getting info for ebay auctions.

 

I think I do try to make my posts as thoughtful as possible and will strive to continue to do so. IMHO, this is still the best forum for nihonto on the 'net by far.

 

Cheers!

[Soshin]

More specifically it worries me that so called "evidence" such as the examples Mr Hayes has published in his new book as being cited as proof that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. That the weakness in this assertion and the complete lack of solid evidence, or even reasoned explanation, doesn't immediately tell everyone that this is nonsense leads me to believe that Mr Haynes words are being accepted merely on the basis of his reputation. A few moments of informed critical thinking easily dismisses this notion.

 

Hi Ford,

I have done this and have came to the conclusion that if I for example had Mr. Haynes cast tsuba discussed by me above and have submitted it to NBTHK shinsa it would not be issued a shinsa origami and I would likely be told that the tsuba is "worthy of recycling" . This is a attempt at humor as the Japanese word hozon often gets translated as "worthy of preservation" and the Japanese do like to recycle. :lol:

The point if it isn't clear is that when reputation is take out of the equation the tsuba would be judged as a modern post Edo Period reproduction of fairly good quality. This in turn would cause it to fail the shinsa test.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Pete Klein]

Oh, now that's an inspired idea David. Perhaps the organizations should use 'green sheets' for fail...

[Mark Green]

I agree. It seems clear that ferrous metal cast tsuba, were not made, for obvious reasons stated above.

Were there some flukes, and experiments? Sure. There always are.

 

Did kettle makers make accurate molds of tsuba to sell to Samurai? Not likely.

 

You see lots of cast tsuba floating around. Post Edo. Likely 20th century.

 

The original Munetoshi tsuba from above, has never been found, has it? What a nice find that would be in Grand Dad's attic.

 

Mark G

[Soshin]

Oh, now that's an inspired idea David. Perhaps the organizations should use 'green sheets' for fail...

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

Good to hear from you. I think the green sheets for shinsa fail is a good idea. Let me write a letter to the sword museum in Tokyo.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Toryu2020]

I wonder gentlemen if there isnt anything written about all this in the "mother tongue"?

Does anyone know the term in Japanese for "Cast Tsuba"? Piers, what exactly was said to your friend?

-tch

(c for curious...)