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Fake or real?

ToniMarino
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kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
Posted

Hello Toni,

 

Well i look at sword shape, hilt and sheath.

 

Your swords are perfect examples of Chinese junk.

 

The sheaths of both swords are wrong because they are a: not Japanese, inscribed with characters which do not mean a thing, dragon inlay is typically Chinese, Family crests are wrong, decoration is non Japanese. Bottom piece of sword 1, clamped on piece of muck.

 

Hilts: First sword, hilt with rayskin but wrong type for a Japanese sabre hilt. Crude and ugly cast copper/metal alloy.

Second sword, crudely cast/pressed copper/metal alloy hilt, totally the wrong shape for an NCO sword, binding is totally off and not even done

properly in the moulding process. Ridiculous tsuba.

 

Swords: Blades not forged but stamped out of mediocre iron, tips of both swords totally wrong, tell tale signs of nonsensical engraving/etching which does not mean a thing, tell tale sign of the ridiculous invented flag engraving on the second sword. No Japanese sword ever had such an engraving.

 

So "congratulations", you are the owner of two very mediocre and badly made Chinese copies.

 

KM

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
Posted

I am happy you did not buy them. :)

 

It is my advice to keep your money in your pocket and start reading the postings on this forum carefully.

 

Also a very good link to fake swords is:

 

http://jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

 

Please start studying this site carefully, it will open your eyes.

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

 

Best wishes,

 

KM

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
Posted

I have only one sword at the moment. I dont buy them yet, I am still studying, but when I have the money I would buy them through members of this forum or Japanese legitimate dealers.

 

To study these swords is rewarding in itself, and when you have studied enough and saved up for instance at least 5000 or more US$ then you can buy yourself a true beauty.

 

KM

Bruno Mentor

Bruno

Posted
Posted

It seems that Toni is interested in buying gunto (regarding the fact he wanted to buy two chinese copies of ww2 Japanese swords).

 

In that case, no need to save 5000$ for that, and yes it is a good idea to buy your first sword from a reliable memeber of this forum.

Grey Doffin Grand Master

Grey Doffin

Posted
Posted

These aren't Chinese copies of WWII Japanese swords; no Japanese sword ever looked even remotely like these. For years I've wondered what exactly these are. 5 years ago they were very common on ebay; lately you don't see them so often. Why would someone (Chinese?) go to so much trouble to make something that looks nothing like the original?

Grey

Jamie Experienced

Jamie

Posted
Posted

Grey,

 

I think it's because they do sell.

When I first started I scoured Craigslist as I don't have a lot around me and no study group. So I drove up about 40 miles north to a Very nice subdivision and looked at what this fellow thought was an ancestral blade. It looked artificially aged and like it had come out of a press, and it had these leaves that were literally the opposite of Horimono. What I mean is it had designs literally protruding off the blade. In the few years I have been studying I have not seen another representation as bad as that one. I told him that I wasn't interested and that I was sure it wasn't Japanese. He insisted I was wrong and said he had paid $2500 dollars for it. In my first year of study I saw a bunch of fakes and people insisted that they were indeed real. At least on the board here when someone posts a fake there are many folks to say this is fake, so that person doesn't feel like someone is trying to take advantage of them by saying it's fake.

Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

Posted
Posted

Grey, you may be correct that they are made somewhere besides China. I sincerely doubt that they are made in Japan. The motive to make them is clear - to deceive and profit from unsuspecting or greedy novice collectors.

  • 4 months later...
Stegel Proficient

Stegel

Posted
Posted

Hi,

I have only just joined and have been reading many posts with great interest.

Reading this one i had to put my 2 cents worth in, for what little its worth.

 

I have seen these around since the late1970's, originally i thought they were real but wasn't impressed with the workmanship or quality, hence never bought one, never showed any interest in obtaining one.

Perhaps as i already had my first NLF sword with original matching officers belt some years earlier, i had acquired better taste? I suppose having the item actually in front of me, spoke volumes compared to a photograph.

 

Anyhow about 10yrs ago i was told that these were used by Chinese collaborators under control of the Japanese, that is much like in occupied Europe with the Germans. The possibly subservient natives who perform medial tasks for the occupying forces to gain favour, or better passage through difficult times.

I don't know if this is FACT, it sounded good, but there is so little info on them, which you all are aware of.

Grey Doffin Grand Master

Grey Doffin

Posted
Posted

Hi, name please,

This story is a variant of the oft heard, "made by Chinese slaves of the occupying Japanese forces." The Japanese weren't going to let the Chinese, whether friend or slave, mass produce and carry swords. And if these were made in China before the occupation or by resisting forces during the occupation, they wouldn't have a Japanese flag on them. I think the only logical answer is that these are early, post WWII fakes. But who made them and why do they look so little like the real thing?

Grey

Stegel Proficient

Stegel

Posted
Posted

Hi Grey,

 

"The Japanese weren't going to let the Chinese, whether friend or slave, mass produce and carry swords. "

 

If you check pg 263 of Fuller & Gregory's "Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks", you will find a whole chapter dedicated to collaboration, emergency issue, reproduction and fake swords.

It goes on to list country by country occupied by Japan, mentioning that they were not only armed, but in some cases even uniformed in Japanese gear. over 100,000 in China alone..... interesting, eh?

This particular type is not shown, however it states numerous type of swords were made and used by local militia's,under Japanese control.

 

And if these were made in China before the occupation or by resisting forces during the occupation, they wouldn't have a Japanese flag on them.

 

My logic dictates that they were not made by "resisting forces", as why would you impersonate your enemies sword pattern? Hence, what i originally heard about these swords still holds and appears valid until proven otherwise, not necessarily FACT as i stated, but definitely plausable.

 

I think the only logical answer is that these are early, post WWII fakes. But who made them and why do they look so little like the real thing?

 

I think the still Jury is out on that one, they may be fakes.... but no hard evidence yet to classify them as that.

 

Having said that, i still find them a mere curiosity and wouldn't bother with them personally.

 

Cheers

Ernst

 

BTW, sorry i haven't quite worked out the quote boxes yet.... still learning :D

Weidas Collaborator

Weidas

Posted
Posted

both swords are fakes although the first one have some similarity to Chinese army dress sword. But only similarity. Ernst, if you mean swords of army and official of occupied by Japan territories or puppet kingdoms like Manchkou, than they are totally different. Please, check our Fuller or Dawson again

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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