Bishu Osafune Sukesada with Aoi Mon

[paulj]

I recently obtained an old wakizashi in a shirasaya (held together with electrian's tape) from a local veteran's estate. The 59 cm blade has a bo bi groove, nice hamon, etc. It is signed Bishu Osafune Sukesada and has an Aoi mon. The Hawley match seems to be SU 415.

 

However, I can find no information on the Aoi mon for this smith. Any input?

[Stephen]

of the board as this is what we like to see true Nihonto, ill check around but don't think I've seen and Bizen Sukesada with this on the Nakago, anyone else out there???

[pascal]

There were at time several smiths who signed sukesada during Bizen times...i.e before the big flloding at the end of 16th century..... so, apart the famous ones (Yosozaemon for example) it is difficult to precisely trace them......

Yours could be koto...I do not know.....

In adition, in order to check the mei, would you have a close up on the signature ?

And the global photo of the blade and hamon + jigane could help in tracing things...

As for the aoi mon.I am puzzled...

just my two cents ideas.

Pascal

[paulj]

Here's the signature. As mentioned, Hawley SU 415 seems to be a match. Most Sukesada signatures shown in Hawley begin with "Bizen" rather than "Bishu" as this one does.

 

The overall length is 76cm and from the tip to notch is 59cm. I'll try to post an image of the entire blade soon.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, for what its worth, this mon gives the "impression" it was added on.

[Jean]

Paul,

 

Very interesting blade, I think that NMB members (including lurkers :lol: ) shall welcome other pictures (hada, hamon). The aoi-mon reminds us of Yasutsugu but has probably been added later. The Nakago Jirimakes me think to early shinto rather than koto (ubu, one mekugi ana ..).

 

Don't be fooled by the Bishu Osafune ...., very common signature for mass production swords during sue Koto (Sengoku/Onin wars), without hada/hamon pictures it is difficult to say more, except that the Nakago seems in pristine condition.

[pascal]

I concur with Jean in what he wrote....However I have a sukesada blade with such a pristine tang, and with only one mekugiana.... and dated 1581....Hence my suggestion of a possible sue Bizen (i.e. late koto) blade in my previsous post.

I have yet to comare the meis.

As for signature, I am sure that Darcy B. will not resent me in throwing what he wrote about Bischu and other Osafune Sukesada Bizen smiths. It is rather long for a post, but I think it is interesting, as it should apply to others meis, than only sukesada....

here it is straight from the horese's mouth (and again, thanks Darcy) :

 

1. Longer signatures which include personal names generally indicate higher quality blades made for a specific order.

2. The use of Bishu rather than Bizen is supposed to indicate a lower quality (bundle sword/mass produced)

3. There was something somewhere about the positioning of the "ju" character before or after Osafune, but I cant remember it or find the reference, someone else may be able to help on that one

As said above these are general points and there are always exceptions : beautiful swords exist with signatures beginning Bishu and some average looking ones with full signatures. As always look at the blade and work before the signature and try to judge it on what you see there.

As said often on this Board : sword quality does confirm the signature. There is an example of a Bishu Osafune Sukesada that is Juyo, proving the point.

 

In general, the Sue Bizen smiths did use a scheme with their signatures that provides a rule of thumb to judge the intended market of their swords.

 

1. Sukesada / Bishu Osafune Sukesada, you will see this on the lowest class of blade. The Juyo above is Hikobeinojo Sukesada who was the earliest of the great Sukesada smiths and he may have been following through on the older period signing style. Not clear. Generally considered mass produced, but there seems to be a lot of variation between really weak stuff and things that will be very nice and what you would expect would be Tokubetsu Hozon... and of course the one Juyo. Very hard to tell, take it on a case by case basis but know it is generally a negative indicator.

 

2. Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune Sukesada... middle class blade.

 

3. Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune John Sukesada... in this case, John is signing his personal name, expending special effort and time and attributing it as his personal work in this really big workshop of Sukesada smiths. This indicates a special-made order for a client and is always high class work.

 

4. Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune John Sukesada Made For Bob... same as above, but they've added the client's name and this is considered the highest form they did.

 

When you scan through the Juyo index, you will see that there are a fair number of daitos signed (2), but I think no tantos. All the tantos from Yosozaemon Sukesada are signed (3).

 

The trick with Osafune is that pre-Sue Bizen the smiths signed "Bizen Osafune Ju Whomever" if they used this pattern, and in Sue Bizen they move the Ju up so it is "Bizen Ju Osafune Whomever." People faking Yosozaemonnojo, Genbeinojo and Hikobeinojo often missed this detail and flipped it around into the "correct" spot which is "wrong" for the Sue Bizen smiths. In the Shinto period the smiths refered to "correct" form but this should be checked.

 

The way the Sue Bizen guys say it, is like they have adopted Osafune into their name. Osafune Sukesada, living in Bizen, rather than Sukesada, living in Osafune town, Bizen province.

end of quote.

Hope this is of interest and help you out....

Pascal

[Jean]

Pascal,

 

You shall remain my friend forever :D

[pascal]

Cher Jean....dear John,

the reverse as well.....

and I do hope so...... lol

A bientot

[paulj]

Here's an image of the sword and part of the hamon. Unfortunately, I don't have a decent camera for this type of photography.

[mike yeon]

looks shinto to me. The length of nakago, the hamon and yakidashi say shinto to me. There were a ton of bizen sukesada smiths in the shinto period. One of the only bizen mon to survive the flooding.

 

Though I have not seen any shinto sukesada that were signed with a very sue-koto "bishu osafune sukesada" mei.

 

my 2 cents.

 

mike

[Jean]

I agree with Mike

 

The Nakago has a flavour which is not exactly Koto.

 

Have a look at the yakidashi, it looks like Osaka shinto .....

 

Be careful, I have seen shinshinto swords with this yakidashi (Chounsai Tsunatoshi .......)