Buying Nihonto for the fittings?

[Anthony]

So I know this might be a hypothetical question for most...

 

But have any of you all thought about or have purchased a cheap blade just for the fittings/tsuba?

 

I only ask because with the price of tsuba/fittings going up to almost $1000, has anyone ever purchased a "cheap" blade specifically for the mountings/fittings?

 

Just wondering, as on the bay there seem to be many antique blades with modern fittings, and many antique fittings with modern blades.

 

Please do not take this as a "should I buy this" post... I am just looking for personal experiences.

 

Anthony.

[Bazza]

The best pair of menuki I have ever personally discovered came to me on a wakizashi of almost indescribable mediocrity and poor quality...

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas

aka BaZZa.

[Anthony]

That is exactly the type of find I am referring to!

 

Talk about a diamond in the rough... those are exquisite!

 

Anthony.

[Curran]

$10,000 tsuba came off a $1000 sword from eBay a few years ago. Some other good ones have been picked up by people looking at fittings while everyone else looks at the long knives.

 

Rare that it happens, sometimes it does.

I don't believe in breaking up koshirae if relatively original and in decent condition, but sometimes the blade is dead due to kid with a grinder or hagire.

 

OPINION:

Functional real tsuba = $500 or less 800 out of 1000

Tsuba unique enough worth papering= $500 to $1000 150 out of 1000

Tsuba of Quality= $1000 to $2000 35 out of 1000

Art Tsuba= $2000 on up 15 out of 1000

 

This DOES NOT mean that if a dealer has smacked a $1000 price tag on it, it is inherently a Quality Tsuba. Especially on eBay.

 

Now that I've stuck my neck out with this armchair opinion, Slings and arrows of counter opinion await me.

[Anthony]

Again, as originally posted, this is not a topic that I made for opinions on whether I should be buying Nihonto specifically for the fittings...

 

It is just a topic to see what may have come of some of the more experienced members' past purchases. And please take the eBay reference for just what it is, a reference. I did not mean to insinuate that I would be hopping on the site to buy up everything I come across to try and make a profit on the fittings...

 

I just wanted to hear peoples' experiences at buying pieces and being pleasantly surprised at the "trinkets", or perhaps buying certain pieces for the fittings they saw presented.

 

Again, thank you for the reply. I appreciate every bit of knowledge given to me, but I believe you took my post out of context. :D

 

Anthony.

[nagamaki - Franco]

keep it simple, buy the fittings for the fittings, buy the sword for the sword.

[Anthony]

keep it simple, buy the fittings for the fittings, buy the sword for the sword.

 

That is like saying "ignore the mei".

 

When making a purchase you either add in every piece you are receiving, or add in none at all. You can not separate the entire purchase from the entire purchase.

 

Again, you are trying to make more of my post than was intended my friend.

 

Much love and respect,

 

Anthony.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Anthony, with all due respect you're not understanding my post, but, perhaps, over time you will, in fact it is not suggesting or saying to ignore anything.

[Anthony]

Anthony, with all due respect you're not understanding my post, but, perhaps, over time you will, in fact it is not suggesting or saying to ignore anything.

 

With all due respect, you can not value a sword, or fitting, without valuing the entire purchase. A $6000 sword might only be a $6000 sword because of the mountings that come with it.

 

Perhaps you are speaking in a riddle that I don't yet understand... but buying a $1500 blade because it comes attached to a $1500 tsuba does not sound like a bad purchase to me. Again, this is all hypothetical as I am focused more on books than metal at my point in collecting... this topic was only started to hear stories like Barry's.

 

But when buying an entire piece, you have to look at the entire purchase. If you sold a mounted Wak, would you not add in the cost of the mountings/fittings into the cost of the blade? The same applies in the opposite direction.

 

Again, I am not meaning to be argumentative, and much respect...

 

Anthony.

[kusunokimasahige]

For me its simple really...

 

There is the collector, who sees a nice item he likes and would like to own, whether it is a sword, or its fittings.

He will cherish what he bought and study it, and when he is done studying/appreciating and enjoying his buy, he might

sell his items on to another collector who has interest and knows how to care for, preserve and honor these ancient items.

 

Then there is the dealer, who buys about anything he can lay his hands on, only to rip it apart and sell it off to others.

 

The first one shows respect for the sword and its heritage, the second does not care one bit, he just cares about price and profit.

 

KM

[Surfson]

Not our most interesting subject line, but worth commenting on. In Japan, I think that many more swords have been treated with respect, and it is probably much more uncommon for a sword to be stripped of its fittings. In the US, so many of the swords that are here were trophies of war and not well cared for. It is often the case that one finds a sword that was once nice but in which the blade has been ruined. In such a case, I feel no guilt in salvaging the fittings. If a sword can be preserved without more expense than it is worth (in many cases, the cost of preservation far exceeds the ultimate expected value), then I always try to do that. Blanket statements about two classes of people are unfounded.

[Anthony]

For me its simple really...

 

There is the collector, who sees a nice item he likes and would like to own, whether it is a sword, or its fittings.

He will cherish what he bought and study it, and when he is done studying/appreciating and enjoying his buy, he might

sell his items on to another collector who has interest and knows how to care for, preserve and honor these ancient items.

 

Then there is the dealer, who buys about anything he can lay his hands on, only to rip it apart and sell it off to others.

 

The first one shows respect for the sword and its heritage, the second does not care one bit, he just cares about price and profit.

 

KM

 

I appreciate your opinions, but even you can understand... even a collector of the art for the art will not pay a $10,000 mark-up just to own a blade. Everyone has money in mind when making an acquisition.

 

As with Mr. Barry, even if he didn't expect to acquire such nice items, it happened in the course of the purchase. But it was still a purchase. He decided that the item being sold was worth the price being paid, regardless of the materials in question.

 

If an auction house was selling a $75,000 Masamune that was unpapered and easily recognized as gimei, you would not be so fast to question the monetary value of your purchase. Like anyone else, you would be careful to invest your money for the best purchase possible.

 

Please do not try to label me as a person who studies art for the profit as opposed to art for art's sake. But also, like any other well-minded human being, I also weigh the investment to the entertainment value I will get out of an item. In no way would I purchase a $50k+ worthless piece of metal when I could rather invest $50k into multiple pieces that would better serve my learning and education, and possibly be worth their purchase price when and if I decide to pass them along.

 

I am not sure if you meant to come off so abrasive, but please do not question my respect for the pieces in question. I appreciate everything on this earth for what it is. Be it functional, like a pencil... art, like a woodblock print... or both, as in a tsuba. But inside everyone is a voice telling them whether they are getting a good investment on their purchase. I have seen you post multiple threads asking for valuations on these boards, and as such, a monetary argument should not be brought up by you.

 

I humbly and honestly apologize for any harsh comments I may have made if your post was not meant to be directed towards me... but I feel as if your last post was meant to be issued toward me (as you would not have posted it if not for the topic.)

 

Respectfully,

 

Anthony.

[kusunokimasahige]

I appreciate your opinions, but even you can understand... even a collector of the art for the art will not pay a $10,000 mark-up just to own a blade. Everyone has money in mind when making an acquisition.

Wrong. I know a few collectors who paid more than 10k to buy a blade because of its beauty, not because what it might fetch later in life. The same with museums paying millions for paint on canvas, and collectors like the late Axel Guttmann who collected hundreds of artefacts arms and armour of ancient civilisations.

As with Mr. Barry, even if he didn't expect to acquire such nice items, it happened in the course of the purchase. But it was still a purchase. He decided that the item being sold was worth the price being paid, regardless of the materials in question.

You are trying to start a debate on purchasing swords for just their fittings without fully defining what the term

purchase means to you. Of course mr. Barry bought what he liked, and decided that the price asked was worth paying it, but that is like kicking in an open door.

If an auction house was selling a $75,000 Masamune that was unpapered and easily recognized as gimei, you would not be so fast to question the monetary value of your purchase. Like anyone else, you would be careful to invest your money for the best purchase possible.

There you are wrong. You do not know me nor do you know what i would invest my money in, if i had it at all.

The problem here is that there is a difference between people who buy and pay for what they like, and who want to keep what they like, and the other more different group who is buying items with economical gain in mind.

Please do not try to label me as a person who studies art for the profit as opposed to art for art's sake. But also, like any other well-minded human being, I also weigh the investment to the entertainment value I will get out of an item. In no way would I purchase a $50k+ worthless piece of metal when I could rather invest $50k into multiple pieces that would better serve my learning and education, and possibly be worth their purchase price when and if I decide to pass them along.

I do not label you at all, nor do i classify you as a person, nor do i have any value-remarks on what you write at this moment. I know you are somewhat of a philosopher as you wrote in the other thread studying the subject of philosophy.

in my personal opinion, philosophy and money do not mix, nor is philosophy of any use in ascertaining the drive of certain people to buy or not to buy items, let alone useful to classify them in a group. For that social sciences would be more apt.

I am not sure if you meant to come off so abrasive, but please do not question my respect for the pieces in question. I appreciate everything on this earth for what it is. Be it functional, like a pencil... art, like a woodblock print... or both, as in a tsuba. But inside everyone is a voice telling them whether they are getting a good investment on their purchase. I have seen you post multiple threads asking for valuations on these boards, and as such, a monetary argument should not be brought up by you.

I do not at all question whether you have respect for ancient artefacts or art or functional items like a pencil. It might be that you meant this last part for someone else since i never have asked on this board what something might be worth.

Monetary arguments are useless when trying to appreciate art to its full extent.

 

Inside me there is no voice telling me to do anything. I buy what i like, and if i sell something on with a profit, well thats ok but not at all important.

I humbly and honestly apologize for any harsh comments I may have made if your post was not meant to be directed towards me... but I feel as if your last post was meant to be issued toward me (as you would not have posted it if not for the topic.)

I dont find anything wrong with you posting some comments which might seem harsh, it is what you think on a certain moment in time, and it is what you react to after interpreting letters on a screen which probably make you feel either good or bad, depending on the order the letters were put in by its author, even though we can never ascertain what the author really intended or what was going on in his or her own brain at the time of writing what he or she wrote....

 

KM

[sanjuro]

I think first one must define what you consider 'good' fittings and what you consider 'good' blades to be. Likewise with the term 'antique' There seems to be a wide disparity of the definition of what is good and what is not. What is a good tsuba or set of fittings to you, may not be to someone else.

 

Have I ever bought a sword only for its fittings?......No. My interest in fittings is incidental to my interest in swords per se. Have I ever bought a sword with lousy fittings for its blade alone?....... Yes. Most of the fittings on complete koshirae that are being sold on ebay and elsewhere are Edo period replacements anyway, unless one takes into consideration gunto (which I dont).

 

As Franco says: If you are buying fittings then buy fittings, if you are buying blades then buy blades. To which I would add, If you are buying on ebay then good luck... You'll need it in either event. One does not expect to find quality fittings on ebay for the same reasons one would not go looking for a wife in a cheap whore house.

There are so few originally mounted quality swords/koshirae available that finding what you describe is a virtual impossibility, and recognising that you had found something out of the ordinary would be unlikely unless you have a great deal of knowledge.

[watsonmil]

Dear Anthony,

So much hubub about a simple hypothetical question. One of the few to answer the straight forward question posed by Anthony was Barry who posted some very nice Menuki found on an otherwise mediocre wakizashi of poor quality. Very nice Barry ! I know I have bought a sword simply to get the Tsuba, ... an otherwise mediocre wakizashi which was tired and past restoration. Picture attached. I also once bought a sword simply to get a very fine Koto period sword that was in WWII mounts. I also bought a terribly damaged Tsuka for the furniture. Not a difficult question to answer in my opinion Anthony. I would also agree that with some responders .... we can never ascertain what the author really intended or what was going on in his or her own brain at the time of writing what he or she wrote....

... Ron Watson

PS. Could we please leave out references to starving children in war torn countries and stick to the subject of the thread.

[David Flynn]

If I see a sword that's past it's use by date and the fittings are good and the price is right, then bingo, I would definitely buy it for the fittings. Whether or not I would strip it, depends on the condition of the koshirae. If it is good enough to keep it together fine, otherwise, I haven't a problem about stripping it.

[Lee Bray]

Well said, Ron.

 

I don't know about buying Nihonto for the fittings but I have one here that I am thinking of keeping because I like the fittings it has.

It's part of a collection myself and a friend bought. It's just come back from shinsa in Japan; a wakizashi that papered to Sue Mihara. It's a reasonable blade but not one I or my friend really care to keep. It has a good set of signed Nara Toshishige fuchi kashira though which I like a lot.

I have an almost matching Nara tsuba which fits the blade, too, so together it makes a good set.

If I can manage the finances on it, I think it will be a keeper because of the fittings. The blade will make a good tsunagi.

[kusunokimasahige]

Agree with you Ron, should not have made that remark since it was a bit pointless, removed it.

 

Indeed people buy what they like, also dealers, and i know that if i did have the money i would buy nice things, and if i would see a blade of mediocre quality with great fittings i would buy it. Stripping it would be a second thing, only when koshirae etc are falling apart there is the need to change it. I am not too interested in loose koshirae and fittings without a blade or having a bamboo blade, which are also sold and collected. To remount a sword you need a professional koshirae/shirasaya maker. I have not come across a sword yet which had the koshirae of another sword and a perfect fit. Talking about remounting, i would not mind remounting a sword from a gunto to a civilian mount if the gunto scabbard was not worth the effort restoring, but in the case of a great looking gunto blade which has battle damage, as for instance the one posted in another thread on here, the one with the bullet hole in the scabbard, the history is more important to me than anything else and it should remain as-is.

 

I think that the act of buying in itself is generally a thing which is decided case by case.

 

KM

[Anthony]

Ron,

 

Thank you very much for your post.

 

Again, to everyone who responded to my initial inquiry, I again apologize. I meant no ill-words towards anyone, it just seemed as if I was being personally attacked for asking a very simple question. Perhaps I should not take words on the internet so personally, it just felt as if I was being attacked and being labeled a bad person for even asking.

 

I am very sorry to everyone that I got defensive with, but being from the South, one's honor or motivations is a very sensitive subject to attack. Perhaps it is a personal flaw of mine, and I will mind myself to watch what I say/type on these forums from now on.

 

Thank you again to everyone for your thoughts on the topic, all of them were taken into account.

 

Anthony.