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Identify defenders of a castle?

Bugyotsuji
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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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I thought it was the "floating world"???

 

Hahaha :lol: yes, well spotted, very good. :clap:

 

We have always been told that 　浮き　UKI- 世　-YO　"Floating World" is the way it should be translated, but then people say it has more of a meaning of fleeting, unsubstantial, transient, of the moment. I like both expressions!

 

The fleet is floating down the river. Hmmm... these two words might be very close.

:thanks:

Markchapman Rookie

Markchapman

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From being a historian and archaeologist i can tell it is some times hard to tell the truth from the fiction.

 

I know from my studies but this is going on European Celtic to medieval alot of the times when artists depicted battles with con or banners they aimed to show alot of smaller clans not just the large armies. It could be possible that this artist may be paying homage? possibly to the smaller clans. But thats just a possible opinion.

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Thanks for the input Mark. Every contribution helps push the truth up and out, I believe.

 

Another very Japanese possibility that has been occurring to me since this whole discussion went off the boil, is that the artist did not want to rekindle old emotions. This was painted in late Edo, and the Bakufu system was still in full control over a 'peaceful' united country.

 

By depicting Hideyoshi, he has removed the scene from any Tokugawa involvement. By making the defenders and the castle unrecognizable, he has avoided offending the family name of anyone or their offspring. No-one can take offense, and everyone can feel the glory of the heat of the battlefield, without anyone knowing the outcome, one way or another. A very diplomatic solution. :clap:

Toryu2020 Grand Master

Toryu2020

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Piers (Bug) -

Why not post this in translation assistance? Perhaps Morita-san can help with this? I get "Nago-Jo something Zu" but since it is trimmed I can't be sure. I too like the idea that the true battle is only hinted at, everyone supposedly knowing Hideyoshi's story by this time so a hint is all most folks need and as suggested also gets you past the censors...

-t

 

(sorry had throw Bug in there, that just cracked me up so much)

Nobody Grand Master

Nobody

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................ I get "Nago-Jo something Zu" but since it is trimmed I can't be sure. I too like the idea that the true battle is only hinted at, everyone supposedly knowing Hideyoshi's story by this time so a hint is all most folks need and as suggested also gets you past the censors...

I am not 100 % sure, but I guess the writing says ...

名將諸国城征伐之圖 - Picture(s?) of famous warlords subjugating castles in various provinces

 

It could be one of a series?????

Baka Gaijin Grand Master

Baka Gaijin

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Evening Piers

 

Perhaps try contacting the curator of works on paper at Waseda University Library, looks like they have quite a selection of Yoshitora prints:

 

http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/chi05/chi05_4198/

 

http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/chi05/chi05_4079/

 

http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/chi05/chi05_4106/

 

Who knows what lies hidden away.....

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Many thanks Malcolm. I have found two or three relatively large repositories of his prints, and stylistically I am guessing the three panels were done from around Koka 4, or 1847~. In many (most) cases he specifies what he is portraying. I now believe he deliberately avoided doing so with the moated-castle scene.

k morita Grand Master

k morita

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I am not 100 % sure, but I guess the writing says ...

名將諸国城征伐之圖 - Picture(s?) of famous warlords subjugating castles in various provinces

 

Moriyama san,

 

Your uneasiness has come true.

You are misreading 越 as 城.

Kanji 越 is read as kana-character を.

 

So,correct reading is:

名將諸国を征伐之圖

Picture of great commander(s) who subjugates each province.

Nobody Grand Master

Nobody

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Hi, Moriyama san,

You always use "I am not 100 % sure,---" at the beginning of sentences.

You should not answer when not confident.

:offtopic:

I do not always use the phrase. Anyway, if you really think so, I have to refrain from most comment.

I simply cannot understand why you show hostility to me lately. :?

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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May I say that I am happy when a Japanese person is sure of the answer, but I am even happier when a Japanese person is NOT sure but gives me some indication, some opinion, even though it might be wrong. This helps me breathe more easily. Silence is particularly difficult to deal with.

 

I hope that both of you will continue to give us your input, whether 100% accurate or 85% possibility. :clap:

 

Having you two here makes this site the best on the web for me. It adds a very special dimension and helps me learn. You are like my parents, :bowdown: but they got divorced. :bang: :cry:

 

I think we all understand that you have different personalities and different approaches, but we never question your motivation or dedication.

 

Moriyama san, Morita san. Please know how much we value your input, both of you! :thanks:

k morita Grand Master

k morita

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Piers san,

Thank you so much for your kind words.

We are not fighting.

 

I think that it is difficult to read old sentences and characters before ealy Meiji era if man did not experience read a lot of old characters and old sentences.

So,I corrected his reading by the confidence of 100%. :)

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Recently I met a nurse who studied Japanese literature and can read much of the old writings of the different ages.

 

I have asked her to help me learn. :lipssealed:

 

I tested her this evening...

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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George, Thank you for asking. I removed the three sheets from their frame and slipped them into the art folder which I took to the venue. When the 90 minutes were up, and the bowing and thanks were over, I realized that this whole chunk of the talk had been waiting untouched. They never got used. :bang:

 

But during the course of this thread people have showed me new ways of considering this work, the times in which it was set, and the cultural factors behind it. For this I am very grateful. :clap:

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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