cabowen Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 I thought it was the "floating world"??? Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 21, 2011 Author Report Posted June 21, 2011 cabowen said: I thought it was the "floating world"??? Hahaha :lol: yes, well spotted, very good. We have always been told that 浮き UKI- 世 -YO "Floating World" is the way it should be translated, but then people say it has more of a meaning of fleeting, unsubstantial, transient, of the moment. I like both expressions! The fleet is floating down the river. Hmmm... these two words might be very close. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 Well spotted indeed Changed the wording deliberately... For Piers i would like to add... The Dutch fleet floated up the Thames/Medway....... And nicked the flagship !!! KM Quote
IanB Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 Henk-Jan, You would bring that matter up wouldn't you. Ian Bottomley Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 Ian, Counter ( coat of arms attached to stern ) of the "Royal Charles" to be collected at: Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam, Netherlands... KM Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 21, 2011 Author Report Posted June 21, 2011 Ian, can we get a float, erm... fleet together? Quote
Markchapman Posted June 22, 2011 Report Posted June 22, 2011 From being a historian and archaeologist i can tell it is some times hard to tell the truth from the fiction. I know from my studies but this is going on European Celtic to medieval alot of the times when artists depicted battles with con or banners they aimed to show alot of smaller clans not just the large armies. It could be possible that this artist may be paying homage? possibly to the smaller clans. But thats just a possible opinion. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Thanks for the input Mark. Every contribution helps push the truth up and out, I believe. Another very Japanese possibility that has been occurring to me since this whole discussion went off the boil, is that the artist did not want to rekindle old emotions. This was painted in late Edo, and the Bakufu system was still in full control over a 'peaceful' united country. By depicting Hideyoshi, he has removed the scene from any Tokugawa involvement. By making the defenders and the castle unrecognizable, he has avoided offending the family name of anyone or their offspring. No-one can take offense, and everyone can feel the glory of the heat of the battlefield, without anyone knowing the outcome, one way or another. A very diplomatic solution. Quote
Toryu2020 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Piers (Bug) - Why not post this in translation assistance? Perhaps Morita-san can help with this? I get "Nago-Jo something Zu" but since it is trimmed I can't be sure. I too like the idea that the true battle is only hinted at, everyone supposedly knowing Hideyoshi's story by this time so a hint is all most folks need and as suggested also gets you past the censors... -t (sorry had throw Bug in there, that just cracked me up so much) Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Morning Piers Here's something about the Artist and some sources for further study: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utagawa_Yoshitora Also here's a link to the Kuniyoshi project which shows almost everything that Kuniyoshi did: http://www.kuniyoshiproject.com/ Cheers Malcolm Quote
Nobody Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Toryu said: ................ I get "Nago-Jo something Zu" but since it is trimmed I can't be sure. I too like the idea that the true battle is only hinted at, everyone supposedly knowing Hideyoshi's story by this time so a hint is all most folks need and as suggested also gets you past the censors... I am not 100 % sure, but I guess the writing says ... 名將諸国城征伐之圖 - Picture(s?) of famous warlords subjugating castles in various provinces It could be one of a series????? Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Thank you Moriyama san. I cannot find any record of such a series, though. Perhaps it was to be the first one but did not sell well! :| Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Evening Piers Perhaps try contacting the curator of works on paper at Waseda University Library, looks like they have quite a selection of Yoshitora prints: http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/chi05/chi05_4198/ http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/chi05/chi05_4079/ http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/chi05/chi05_4106/ Who knows what lies hidden away..... Cheers Malcolm Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Posted June 24, 2011 Many thanks Malcolm. I have found two or three relatively large repositories of his prints, and stylistically I am guessing the three panels were done from around Koka 4, or 1847~. In many (most) cases he specifies what he is portraying. I now believe he deliberately avoided doing so with the moated-castle scene. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Morning Piers Here's a list of Print Publishers marks, this may help in tracking the series down. http://www.printsofjapan.com/Publishers.htm Cheers Malcolm Quote
k morita Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Nobody said: I am not 100 % sure, but I guess the writing says ... 名將諸国城征伐之圖 - Picture(s?) of famous warlords subjugating castles in various provinces Moriyama san, Your uneasiness has come true. You are misreading 越 as 城. Kanji 越 is read as kana-character を. So,correct reading is: 名將諸国を征伐之圖 Picture of great commander(s) who subjugates each province. Quote
Nobody Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Thanks, Then, I could find the same picture on the following page. Ref. http://www.ukiyoe.com/mokuroku/mokuroku6/p074.htm Quote
k morita Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Hi, Moriyama san, You always use "I am not 100 % sure,---" at the beginning of sentences. You should not answer when not confident. Quote
Nobody Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 k morita said: Hi, Moriyama san,You always use "I am not 100 % sure,---" at the beginning of sentences. You should not answer when not confident. I do not always use the phrase. Anyway, if you really think so, I have to refrain from most comment. I simply cannot understand why you show hostility to me lately. :? Quote
k morita Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Hostility? OH NO! We are the people of the same hobby. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Posted June 24, 2011 May I say that I am happy when a Japanese person is sure of the answer, but I am even happier when a Japanese person is NOT sure but gives me some indication, some opinion, even though it might be wrong. This helps me breathe more easily. Silence is particularly difficult to deal with. I hope that both of you will continue to give us your input, whether 100% accurate or 85% possibility. Having you two here makes this site the best on the web for me. It adds a very special dimension and helps me learn. You are like my parents, but they got divorced. I think we all understand that you have different personalities and different approaches, but we never question your motivation or dedication. Moriyama san, Morita san. Please know how much we value your input, both of you! Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Posted June 24, 2011 Nobody said: Thanks,Then, I could find the same picture on the following page. Ref. http://www.ukiyoe.com/mokuroku/mokuroku6/p074.htm And thanks to you too, the date is confirmed as 'from Koka 4 Nen', the year that my Kumamoto Castle Hinawa-Ju was made! (But my 武鑑 is 弘化三年） Quote
k morita Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Piers san, Thank you so much for your kind words. We are not fighting. I think that it is difficult to read old sentences and characters before ealy Meiji era if man did not experience read a lot of old characters and old sentences. So,I corrected his reading by the confidence of 100%. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Posted June 24, 2011 Recently I met a nurse who studied Japanese literature and can read much of the old writings of the different ages. I have asked her to help me learn. I tested her this evening... Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 Dont tell me you asked her to translate Shunga textst !!! KM Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted June 24, 2011 Report Posted June 24, 2011 A dirty mind is a joy forever Piers !! KM Quote
george trotter Posted June 29, 2011 Report Posted June 29, 2011 Piers, I am interested to know how your talk on castles went? What did the question and answer session bring forth? Any answers to these questions? Regards, Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted June 29, 2011 Author Report Posted June 29, 2011 George, Thank you for asking. I removed the three sheets from their frame and slipped them into the art folder which I took to the venue. When the 90 minutes were up, and the bowing and thanks were over, I realized that this whole chunk of the talk had been waiting untouched. They never got used. But during the course of this thread people have showed me new ways of considering this work, the times in which it was set, and the cultural factors behind it. For this I am very grateful. Quote
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