Identify defenders of a castle?

[Bugyotsuji]

Next Tuesday I am supposed to be giving a talk in Japanese on Netsuke and Ukiyoe to a group of Japanese citizens. Third, and thankfully last talk in the series.

 

I remember when I bought this Ukiyo-e triptych by Utagawa 'Ichimosai' Yoshitora, the dealer said the castle is unknown. Printed in the 1840s?

 

It appears that Toyotomi Hideyoshi is attacking a moated castle, and guns are involved. Possibility one is that Yoshitora just made up some banners for imaginary defenders.

 

Possibility two is that someone might be able to put Hideyoshi, his campaigns, castles with moats, and those banners together to make a plausible scenario.

 

I've had a look through Evalerio's images on another site, but couldn't find anything that fit happily.

 

Gentlemen, place your bets.

[Bugyotsuji]

Odawara-Jo?

[kusunokimasahige]

It looks like the o uma-jirushi with the red sun is somehow related to the Matsudaira of Echizen. (Yuki Hideyasu)

or Matsudaira Tadanao, according to the banners shown in this thread on the Samurai Archives.

 

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/view ... sc&start=0 (page 2)

 

The Sakai of Mikawa could also be possible, and the standard next to the red sun banner looks a little like the standard of Shibata Katsumasa. The red sun banner was also used by the Date.

 

The swirling red banner and the greyish blue banners with the dots refer to Otani Yoshitsugu...

 

Its difficult to ascertain with certainty which castle is under siege here...

 

KM

[cabowen]

Odawara-Jo?

 

I lived in Odawara for two years; I don't think so....

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

Since no one seems to be able to identify the particular engagement depicted in your woodblock prints, and I am assuming this was going to be an illustration for your lecture.

You state : " Next Tuesday I am supposed to be giving a talk in Japanese on Netsuke and Ukiyoe to a group of Japanese citizens. Third, and thankfully last talk in the series. " It is my understanding via PM that you were having some trouble coming up with subject material. As you stated this is an older well educated group, ..... I was thinking why not : The evolution of Shunga from the Edo Period to 21st Century Hentai. God, ... would I love to be a fly on the wall for that !

... Anonymous Ron

[Anthony]

It is my understanding via PM that you were having some trouble coming up with subject material. As you stated this is an older well educated group, ..... I was thinking why not : The evolution of Shunga from the Edo Period to 21st Century Hentai. God, ... would I love to be a fly on the wall for that !

... Anonymous Ron

 

Sadly the answer to tenta-porn and other unusual Japanese fetishes is that actual intercourse was outlawed due to decency laws even in cartoons... so while human/human intercourse was illegal, there was no law banning human/alien intercourse... hence the current, "trend".

 

And for the love of god, please do not ask me why I know this...

 

Anthony.

[kusunokimasahige]

The defensive tower on the right has some distinctive characteristics of Takamatsu Castle, though it is not a perfect match.....

 

 

 

Even though the orientation is way off and the gate looks nothing like the gate in the photos, it could well be a rendition of Takamatsu with the defensive tower as main recognizable feature.

 

Large: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... stle23.jpg

 

It becomes more clear when you mirror the image :

 

 

Just an idea...

 

KM

[Bugyotsuji]

Dang, not Odawara then. (I liked the look of the drawbridge to the main gate.)

 

Tottori? A Korean castle in the Japanese style?

 

Which Takamatsu is that, Henk-Jan?

 

Hmmm... every straw I grab seems to be slipping away.

 

Shunga only came up as I was power reading on Ukiyoe, Ron. There will be eight men in that room, and from comments dropped last time I think they would be more than happy to have some serious Shunga rolled out for perusal. The four ladies, on the other hand, might a bit of an unknown quantity when we come to the edge of the known world and get ready to step off.

[Anthony]

As was touched on earlier, you could always it as an opportunity to discuss the various crests used by the families.

 

There are more than 5 flags being flown in the pictures, and these could either:

 

A) Be used to try and narrow down the conflict (everyone one of the crests could not be present at more than a few skirmishes.)

 

B) Be used to discuss the families present even if you do not recognize the conflict in question.

 

Half of the trouble in being a teacher is possibly having to relate the subject matter to a topic that is not being pictured. Get creative, I know you will come up with something they will love!

[Bugyotsuji]

Anthony, the question still remains as to whether Yoshitora was a historically accurate printer or like Mel Gibson in Braveheart, just interested in stirring up the spirit of the age.

 

This tryptich will illustrate how the 1842 Tenpo reforms encouraged war imagery in place of decadent stuff like courtesans, Geisha and actors.

 

I will probably let them roll a few Netsuke around in the hands, and explain how I repaired the few tatty Ukiyo-e that fluttered my way. The Shunga will stay in reserve...

 

The question of which castle this might be has bothered me on and off, regardless of any talk or speech, and suddenly today I thought let's open it up the the honourable members.

 

Many thanks for your thoughtful feedback, folks!

[kusunokimasahige]

Piers, its not the right one i am afraid.. The Takamatsu which was besieged by Hideyoshi was located in Bitchu and is now an archeological site, and the one i posted pics of stands in Sanuki and was built in 1590.

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... 8Sanuki%29

 

http://www.jcastle.info/castle/profile/ ... tsu-Castle

 

Many more castles :

 

http://www.jcastle.info/castle/browse/?pg=all

 

Another idea just crossed my mind... If the Takamatsu castle besieged by Hideyoshi which is now an archaeological site in Okayama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takamatsu_ ... 8Bitchu%29) did not exist anymore during the life and age of

Yoshitora, but the one in Sanuki did, it might be possible that he did use the one in Sanuki as an example.

 

KM

 

PS. let Shunga and hentai or even yaoi stay out of this topic please....

[Toryu2020]

Piers-

Can you post a close up of the small panel at upper left with writing in it? Have you read that or had others read it? Are there other seals or panels on the tryptich? Have you looked online for other examples of this image that have not been trimmed?

 

Thinking out loud...

-t

[Anthony]

As in every culture, some things were made more mythos than fact.

 

As you stated, it may very well be that this battle never took place, but that the story was fabricated to give an understanding as to how the families in the picture came to power.

 

As a matter of opinion, this may even be a great topic for your discussion, how history is fabricated to express the present. No one is trying to say that a battle didn't happen at this particular post... but perhaps the people involved were not the original combatants.

 

Perhaps the flags in the picture just symbolize the families that came to power after the battle... and perhaps the battle was slightly exaggerated to make the story fit the outcome.

 

This could all be used as a discussion topic, but may be out of the scope of the lecture. I am a philosophy grad, so perhaps I see fact/argument in anything presented to me... but this is a path of study none-the-less.

 

No matter what you decide to do with your lecture, I bet the participants will be happy to absorb everything you have to offer! That is the great thing about information. Even mis-represented information gives insights into the true meaning of a topic. Even if the clans pictured didn't participate in the battle, perhaps you could give an understanding into why they were pictured as maybe they came to power after the mentioned prints.

 

Anthony.

[Bugyotsuji]

Gotta hit the sack, but pleasant dreams tonight, I wot. :lol:

 

Some further shots of the tryptich. My camera is usually good, but the colours have not come out well. A copy of this work is illustrated in Sugawa's book. There is also a set in a museum in New Zealand, stating that is it Toyotomi Hideyoshi's besieging army... Unfortunately they all seem to have been trimmed. It's not great art, to my eye, but it's done with energy.

[Anthony]

Bug,

 

As in all cultures, some art is meant as art, some art is meant as history.

 

Even in today's society, we have court artists who will draw the images of a courtroom scene when photography is not allowed.

 

Perhaps what we are seeing is an artists quick interpretation of what is happening, and perhaps not exactly what was being seen. All art may very well be history, but not all history may be classified as true "art".

 

Perhaps this is one of those times that the artist was trying to get a truth across while maybe not being entirely truthful in his interpretation.

 

Just food for thought, but it does not sit well with me that this scene was printed and never happened historically. It may be perhaps that some ancient artists would have copied scenes of historically important events, but as this is a scene that has no easily recognizable information, it does not sit with me that this scene never happened.

 

It does not come to my knowledge often that artists would fabricate a scene purely for the aesthetics. Aside from today's Hollywood, it was not often, if at all, that an ancient artist would completely fabricate a scene completely for arts' sake. There must be some truth behind the picture, unless specifically commissioned by the winning side for propaganda... which would be a study/lecture topic unto itself.

 

This topic is getting deeper and deeper. It may very well be time for me to leave this subject as-is, and perhaps may be time for the more historically educated to take over... I am simply giving my views of the situation.

 

Anthony.

[Anthony]

After looking at all the scenes being printed, and all the views being shown... I am HIGHLY doubtful that this scene never took place. All artists have some form of original subject (be it real-time or memory) that they give an interpretation of.

 

I believe it is very... VERY... unlikely that this many prints were made of a scene that never happened. Perhaps we do not know when the skirmish occurred, or who was involved... but I feel fairly confident saying that this piece of history did occur. Our learning just may not be up to task to discern when, or where, with who, this may have occurred.

 

Anthony.

[Bugyotsuji]

As a footnote to Andrew above, what you say may well be true. Indeed I very much hope that you are right and one day someone will come forward and say, "Yes, that is the famous Seige of Akasatana-Hamayarawa Castle".

 

That is what is in my heart, fondly.

 

My brain tells me however, that one must be ready for any eventuality, in order to avoid any disappointment.

 

I know Hideyoshi performed a series of battles in his Western Campaign against the Mohri and their vassals毛利　(long O-, as opposed to the short o in Mori　森) , capturing various castles in the process. Some like Tottori will have had a moat or moats. During the most famous of these sieges, the Mizu-zeme (flood-them-out siege) at Takamatsu Castle, he was waiting for Shimizu Muneharu in his boat to hurry up and perform the Happy Dispatch when he heard the news of Oda Nobunaga's death.

 

I have to acknowledge that Yoshitora may have been fuzzy on the details, despite knowing like everyone else about Hideyoshi's famous Mizu-zeme brilliance. Since the castle walls no longer exist, he may have taken poetic licence and hoped his customers would recognize the scene as Bichu Takamatsu-Jo. (?)

 

http://www.mustlovejapan.com/subject/si ... su_castle/

 

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98% ... D%E5%9B%BD)

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning Piers

 

Here's a site worth spending some time on:

 

http://www.Japanese-castle-explorer.com/

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Bugyotsuji]

Malcolm, that's good. Just been playing around there. Thanks.

 

Also thanks also to Henk-Jan for some nice castle links on the previous page.

 

Now, I am still digging around Japanese sites for a definitive list of moated castles that Hideyoshi or his generals laid siege to. Could be a large number, though.

[estcrh]

If you look at the armor that is depicted it is a very old style of armor, which would indicate (if the artist was showing an historical fight) that this conflict was close to the introduction of firearms, before armor use changed to the newer style of plate armors.

 

 

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all

 

When viewing images particularly woodblock prints from the Tokugawa period, we have to take into consideration the strict artistic censorship that they were produced under; we are not witnessing exact Historical reportage here.

 

There will be many details in the print that would be enforced by the Censors, whose seals will be on the sheets along with the Publishers.

 

Although artists tried to circumvent the rules by being oblique or subtle, it was a little like a one armed man trying to box with God.

 

Yoshitoshi (1839 - 1892) is a good example of a woodblock artist pushing the boundaries, although he is very late in both the period and the actual medium, this image makes me smile:

 

http://www.fujiarts.com/cgi-bin/item.pl?item=116065

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[IanB]

Piers, Eric, Print artists generally depicted warriors in old fashioned armour. Look at the works of Utagawa Kuniyoshi and you will see the armour and things like tachi koshirae are very over the top and out of period. I was privileged to handle a scroll of the life of Tokugawa Ieyasu preserved at Nikko and the whole thing is painted as if he lived in the late Heian period with him wearing o-yoroi and fighting with his bow from horseback. This was perhaps to flatter the family by suggesting they had a long and illustrious pedigree. Another problem about ukiyo-e artists is that they were subject to rigorous censorship and often used a false name for particular personages and events being depicted. I used to own a print of Kato Kiyomasa in his tall helmet, circular kamon and jumonji yari, but the print described the subject with a made up name. Everybody knew who it was meant to be, but the artist chose for whatever reason not to use the right name. It may well be that any reference to this print depicting a real event at a real castle will have been disguised to avoid problems with the censors.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

I was privileged to handle a scroll of the life of Tokugawa Ieyasu preserved at Nikko and the whole thing is painted as if he lived in the late Heian period with him wearing o-yoroi and fighting with his bow from horseback.

That would be like showing Winston Churchill fighting in full armor.

[george trotter]

Given the comments that ukiyoe prints of battles and castles etc are invariably distorted in some historical way I might be way out of line, but speaking architecturally, I notice this gate tower has circular embrasures. I have seen a good number of castles in Japan, and while not purposely looking for these features, I do not remember seeing any circular holes like these...but on the other hand, maybe they are common and I just didn't notice. At least they may, if a relevant point, lead to narrowing the castle list down a bit...maybe Matsuyama Castle has some of these?

Just my 2 cents worth...

[kyushudan]

Hi all, I'm new here. I am Kyushudan of the Japanese Castle Explorer website.

 

First, let me say that I don't know jack about Ukiyo-e. So, all I can really have an opinion in is the castle. And, what castle do I think it is? No idea. Sorry.

 

I am absolutely certain that whatever castle it was, it did not look as it has been depicted here by the artist. I'm sure Mr Utagawa used the castle buildings that he saw around him as references. For me, the two-story turret has the look of the Sakurada (Tatsumi) Turret of Edo Castle (the Imperial Palace to some.) The three-story turret looks to be similar to one of the remaining turrets of Nagoya Castle. I should clarify that even while I say they look similar, it may just be a coincidence.

 

Bottom line: the accuracy of the castle is not important to the scene.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Dan,

 

Welcome to the site and thanks for the thoughts. Your last comment "...the accuracy of the castle is not important to the scene" leads me to ask you what then is important.

 

In many if not most Ukiyo-e battle scenes, the artist indicates where it is taking place. That he has not indicated perhaps vindicates such a suggestion.

 

In light of the 1842 Tenpo reforms, has the artist taken the authorities' directions to heart? Dressing the participants in O-yoroi suggests great respect for them. Is this a scene designed to generate respect for the martial arts, and for a rearming of Japan in the face of internal complacency and barbarian threats from outside?

 

"Remember the glorious deeds of our ancestors!"

[kyushudan]

Hi Piers,

 

I'd just like to reiterate that my knowledge on the topic of Ukiyo-e is almost zero. You mention Tenpo reforms... I just have no idea. Anyway... on the accuracy of castles in Ukiyo-e:

 

Check out the second Ukiyo-e print on this page: http://www.library.pref.kagoshima.jp/honkan/?p=505 The title: 鹿児島城激戦之図. The inaccuracies are huge. There were no towers, let alone three-story ones. The moat & bridge were far, far smaller. It has been well noted that the castle of Kagoshima is the biggest push-over of a castle there ever was. The one depicted looks like it had a chance of holding out.

 

And on this page: http://www.library.pref.kagoshima.jp/honkan/?p=522, there are two glimpses of the white towers of Kumamoto castle. Of course, there are no white towers at Kumamoto. All have blackened wood panelling with the white plaster only being used for the eaves/tops of the walls. Wouldn't you think the black or white-ness of a castle would be preserved in a print?

 

I've not much left in the tank but let me just say, the accuracy of a castle in print was never a consideration. It seems it was sufficient merely to convey the sense of the castle.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks Dan for the detailed follow-up. You have to be right.

 

Now I can see I will have to change the question for Japanese people.

 

"Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, now look at this scene, and tell me the first thing that pops into your mind!"

[kusunokimasahige]

Ramen !

 

:lol:

 

KM

 

PS: I think you need to take into account artistic license especially when looking at prints made in the late Edo period in which the Sengoku Jidai became a fleeting memory in a fleeting world......

[Bugyotsuji]

Henk-Jan, "fleeting world"... very good. This thread nicely tied up! :lol: